What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

[goldenmoose]

Hi,

What is the real deal between BBb and CC? I mean why do so many people say I should switch to a CC tuba.

Here is the deal...I currently play a 5/4 BBb Rudy. I don't play a BBb horn because of the key it is in; I play it because it produces the best sound of any horn I've tried.

In the future (when I move to LA, Chicago, Boston, etc...) are people going to overlook me for gigs just because I play a BBb horn instead of a CC? I know what my feelings are on the subject, I just thought I would get your opinion.

Thanks!!

[lgb&dtuba]

Other than other tuba players, no one will know or care if you're playing a BBb or a CC. That is, if you play it well enough.

[guillaumedu]

go read Roger BOBO blog he write somthing on it

[J.c. Sherman]

Play what you are comfortable on and sound good on. That's all that is important. Some teachers may disagree, but the real world doesn't give a hoot. Wes Jacobs Played BBb. Yasuhito Sugiyama (sp?) plays a Fafner for some works. James Jenkins playes BBb. And they all sound awesome.

Who cares what's popular. Play what you like. Play what sounds good and acrobatic.

J.c.S. (whose religious attachment to his Eb hasn't stopped him...)

[tubashaman2]

.

[circusboy]

I certainly agree with the "play what you're comfortable with/what sounds good" advice. My understanding, however, is that if you're playing in any sort of ensemble other than brass band, the fingerings are easier on a CC. That's why many players switch.

A 5/4 Rudy in any key sounds pretty sweet to me.

[J.c. Sherman]

I certainly agree with the "play what you're comfortable with/what sounds good" advice. My understanding, however, is that if you're playing in any sort of ensemble other than brass band, the fingerings are easier on a CC. That's why many players switch.

A 5/4 Rudy in any key sounds pretty sweet to me.

Nope. Not a bit.

J.c.S.

[TUBAD83]

Play what you are comfortable on and sound good on. That's all that is important. Some teachers may disagree, but the real world doesn't give a hoot. Wes Jacobs Played BBb. Yasuhito Sugiyama (sp?) plays a Fafner for some works. James Jenkins playes BBb. And they all sound awesome.

Who cares what's popular. Play what you like. Play what sounds good and acrobatic.

J.c.S. (whose religious attachment to his Eb hasn't stopped him...)

I concur--Its really a matter of personal preference.

JJ

[imperialbari]

The real deal of tuba pitches is to keep the talk on TubeNet going.

K

[iiipopes]

The absolute, bottom line, real deal between a BBb and a CC? About 24 more inches in the bugle, and a tad more on each valve slide.

Hey, you asked!

[bort]

For me, I play CC tuba because it's what I played through college, where I really developed my abilities. So for me, going to BBb would be "the switch." I could still do it if I wanted to, but like so many other people have said, there's no real reason.

[The Jackson]

The absolute, bottom line, real deal between a BBb and a CC? About 24 more inches in the bugle, and a tad more on each valve slide.

Hey, you asked!

And about a grand more on the price tag...

[Rick Denney]

The real deal of tuba pitches is to keep the talk on TubeNet going.

We have a winner.

and...

And about a grand more on the price tag...

...is also a key point.

Here's the synopsis.

1. C tubas are two feet shorter in the bugle than Bb tubas. F tubas are about six feet shorter in the bugle than Bb tubas. F tubas are generally more responsive and agile than Bb tubas. It stands to reason that C tubas will cover part of that ground.

2. C and Bb tubas are indistinguishable in sound, even to tuba players. I showed up for the first time in my current band with a York Master Bb tuba, and the director asked me if it was a C. He's a high-end tuba player. Unless you know the model, it's hard to tell by looking, or by listening.

3. The pitch of the instrument you play is not an item on your resume.

4. Auditions are held with the player behind a screen, and judged by people who can't tell the difference (by looking) between a C and Bb tuba unless they know the model, and since most of them are not tubas players, they don't know the models.

5. Some fingerings are hard. Some are easy. This is true no matter what tuba you have. With practice, they all get easier. This is also true no matter what tuba you have.

5a. Good intonation is hard, and harder using some tubas than others. This is true no matter what key of tuba you have.

6. Tuba players are judged just like any other musician, on rhythm, time, pitch, dynamics, tone, articulation, clarity, reading accuracy, and how well they put all that together to tell a story. If you get all that right, nobody will care what buttons you are pushing to make it happen.

7. Some people are unwilling to learn new fingerings because they are lazy. This is excusable for amateurs who do it for fun. This is intolerable for performance majors who should be at least comfortable on all four keys of tuba by the time they venture into the professional world.

8. I suspect that some professors use the switch to C as a test of commitment. Those players refusing to make the switch are either showing laziness (see above) or they have already found their voice on their Bb instrument. Professors will rightly assume the former until they have persuasive evidence of the latter. If you keep a Bb tuba because of the sound it makes, you had better be making a sound that justifies that position. I suspect the number of college players able to live up to that standard is tiny indeed. For those who do, I doubt many professors will ever bring up the issue of the instrument they are playing.

9. Those who play Bb while pursuing a performance degree may be perceived as lazy (see above), and will therefore have more to prove. Unless they are part of that tiny minority who has truly found their voice and who is capable of demonstrating that, why engage the battle? Many who feel they have found their voice on Bb are deluding themselves. We've had many young'uns claim a world-class sound based on what someone else told them. Those who really have a world-class sound don't need others to tell them so.

10. Switching to C is a misnomer. One does not abandon the Bb tuba. One adds the C tuba to their skill set. Are you afraid to learn new things?

11. Anybody wanting to learn the C tuba just for the fun of it gets my full blessing. Anybody who says it's necessary for making good music gets my vigorous rebuttal.

12. Amateurs who play Bb can often find world-class instruments for considerably less than the price of similar C tubas. (See The Jackson's quote above). I have two examples in my collection. In one case, the Bb benefit in price was much more than $1000. In the other case, it was possibly a bit less.

13. Professionals often are required to play Bb. Just ask the guys in the premiere military bands.

14. I dispute that a Bb tuba sounds different than a C tuba just because it's got two extra feet. I will not dispute, however, that most people who play Bb tubas have a different sound than most who play C tubas. In this case, the difference is measured in hours in the practice room, not in feet of bugle length.

Rick "in no particular order" Denney

[jonesbrass]

8. I suspect that some professors use the switch to C as a test of commitment. Those players refusing to make the switch are either showing laziness (see above) or they have already found their voice on their Bb instrument. Professors will rightly assume the former until they have persuasive evidence of the latter. If you keep a Bb tuba because of the sound it makes, you had better be making a sound that justifies that position. I suspect the number of college players able to live up to that standard is tiny indeed. For those who do, I doubt many professors will ever bring up the issue of the instrument they are playing.

9. Those who play Bb while pursuing a performance degree may be perceived as lazy (see above), and will therefore have more to prove. Unless they are part of that tiny minority who has truly found their voice and who is capable of demonstrating that, why engage the battle? Many who feel they have found their voice on Bb are deluding themselves. We've had many young'uns claim a world-class sound based on what someone else told them. Those who really have a world-class sound don't need others to tell them so.

I really liked your post, Rick, but I can't agree with #8 or #9.
#8: If you can play, you can play. Doesn't matter BBb or CC. If we're talking about time spent in the woodshed, wouldn't it be best to master the horn you started on (ie. BBb) before learning another instrument? Couldn't I think that switching to CC is due to your inability to master the BBb? If a player stuck with BBb and had the same talent and practice regimen, shouldn't they be able to play BBb as well as they could if they moved to CC, especially since they've shortened their learning curve?
#9: If the player plays BBb well enough, you've stated no one cares (other than some tuba players). Many who've claimed to have found their voice on CC are deluding themselves, as well. Pitch of the horn is irrelevant in this regard.
My $0.02 . . . probably worth less. I just think we owe it to ourselves to dispel the myths.

[The Big Ben]

I knew that this was discussed awhile ago so, to those who are motivated, this is a link to an earlier thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31664&p=277594&hili ... on#p277580" target="_blank" target="_blank

In this thread, the merits of different horns and auditions was discussed. An example was a Mira 186 CC vs. "big name/flavor of the month" CC. Some felt that a person who had the 'stuff' to win an orchestra audition would be at a disadvantage showing up with a 186 CC over, say, a Thor. One wonders what would happen if that same skilled tubist showed up to the audition with a good example of a King 2341, 186 Mira, a Fafner or <name your horn>.

[Rick Denney]

I really liked your post, Rick, but I can't agree with #8 or #9.

My post isn't based on what should be, but rather what is (at least in some places). Professors are subject to biases and myths like the rest of us. My sense is that a person playing a Bb tuba in a college program has something to prove beyond what his mates have when playing their C tubas. Kudos to professors who don't allow that to happen.

But laziness has no excuse in a college program. If a professor senses reluctance to try instruments in different pitches, then that professor would be justified in pursuing whether the reason is musically justified or just laziness. And that pursuit would probably be perceived by the student as pretty challenging. Students may also misinterpret the motivation behind it, and go on the perpetuate the myth that C is metaphysically superior.

I would say the same thing for students who learned on C and refused to bother with Bb. Here, I think the biases of professors might be more visible. Would a professor who claims to be agnostic on the Bb vs. C debate be more likely to make a Bb player learn C than to make a C player learn Bb? Considering the high percentage of paying gigs in the tuba world that require Bb competence, I think anyone with a performance degree should be at least competent on both. And if achieving that competence is a problem, then there is a bigger problem in play.

Let me say it from a different perspective. Several of us were listening to a demonstration of technical wizardry by Roland Szentpali a few years ago at the Army Conference. He was a teenager at the time, as I recall. We had this feeling that if he decided he needed facility on any given tuba, he would have it by the end of the week. For players at that level, learning different fingerings is a non-problem, just like playing a given tune in a different key on demand. If it is a problem, then maybe the player has or is imposing limitations on himself that will undermine his success as a performer. I would expect a good professor to dig that truth out of any performance major. That fits in the same mold in my thinking as an engineering student who can't grasp, say, calculus.

Rick "for whom calculus did not come naturally, but come it did, of necessity" Denney

[Wyvern]

Differences in tone and performance between different models of BBb and CC tuba are often greater than differences through pitch, but generally speaking CC are more nimble than BBb due to their shorter length and have a slightly easier high register. However a 4/4 BBb may well be more nimble than a larger 6/4 CC and some BBb have excellent high registers.

I am currently playing my Neptune a lot as a BBb to learn the fingerings (ready for USA trip in July) and honestly its tone and performance is indiscernibly different from in CC.

However, despite comments to the contrary, my impression is that a lot of band music has easier fingering patterns playing BBb tuba.

[termite]

G'day Goldenmoose.

I think a few people have the idea in their head that CC sounds better than BBb because the BBb tubas they've played and heard are lower quality instruments than the CC's they encountered. I've never played one but I suspect your Rudy 5/4 BBb would be the equal of any tuba on the planet. I think you would be able to hold your head up against all the CC players much better on the Rudy than on a King 2431, YBB321 etc.

I've heard of a few "CC is better than BBb" believers changing their minds after encountering either the Fafner, 1291BBb or 5/4 Rudy BBb.

There's no need to tell anyone what key your Rudy is in. I just let everyone assume my 1291BBb is a CC.

My two cents worth.

Regards

Gerard

[sloan]

I certainly agree with the "play what you're comfortable with/what sounds good" advice. My understanding, however, is that if you're playing in any sort of ensemble other than brass band, the fingerings are easier on a CC. That's why many players switch.

At the high school all-state rehearsals last year, the tubas were given a sectional tech with someone who told us to switch for CC not for fingerings but for tuning, which does indeed seem to be the biggest issue. Strings play best in sharp keys, so orchestral music is written in sharp keys. Brass plays best in flat keys, so when you're told to play in a sharp key, it tends to sound really horrible, though this is much more so on trombone than on tuba.

So...are you switching to a C trombone?

[Tuba Guy]

Occasionally you run into a piece where having a specific keyed horn would make it so much easier. I just played a piece by Grainger (I'm blanking on the title). In it, there is a triplet 16th Ab-Bb-Ab (and a G eighth after) (all at the bottom of the staff). I was playing my C, so the fingerings needed were 23-1-23-0. It was really hard to get all of those out fast enough on my C, so I ended up playing the Bb as 123. In context, it was passable, but I would have really liked the opportunity to play this piece on a Bb or Eb (1-0-1-12)
If you're going fast enough, some fingerings are going to be really hard to pull off