Sam Gnagey's 6/4 CC

[timdicarlo]

Howdy all,

I put money down yesterday on Sam Gnagey's 6/4 CC prototype. After spending the better part of two weeks bouncing between tuba dealers, I can honestly say that this horn blew all of them out of the water in most regards. It has the firepower of a massive horn, but plays more nimbly than most 4/4 tubas. Low, mid and high registers are all solid, and the intonation didn't draw any major complaints either. The tone was big but not splattery or overpowering; I could probably derail a train with it, but I could also play comfortably at a small-ensemble dynamic level. I admit I was dragging my feet with the final sale yesterday simply because I didn't want to put the thing down.

Mr. Gnagey was great about the whole process-- he worked around my schedule for visit times, showed me around his shop and let me honk it out on his various creations, and above all was genuinely interested in my ending up with the right horn, even if it didn't turn out to be his. To anyone in the market or just looking to play some great instruments, head on over to Fort Wayne. You won't be disappointed.

Anyway, I feel obligated as a contributing member of this board to supply you all with a healthy dose of horn dorn. Keep in mind that this tuba isn't a finished product yet; the fifth valve trigger still needs to be attached, as it's a little difficult to use with the current pipe-cleaner rig. The spit valve on the main tuning slide may also be moved or replaced. Other than that, though, she's a beauty. Enjoy!

From my first visit; the horn was significantly shinier the second time around.

The rest are from yesterday.




Sorry about the lousy picture quality. I don't own a digital camera, so my cell phone had to suffice.

[Uncle Buck]

Is the "leather belt around the bell" fad making a comeback??

[TUBAD83]

You need a black leather belt with small brass studs on it--think about it!

[Sam Gnagey]

I suppose before anyone makes further judgement about the efficacy of the belt around the bell of this instrument they should do an A/B test of it with and without the belt. I make a point of not doing anything to an instrument that doesn't have a proven positive effect on its performance. There is a marked improvement in feel, response and projection with the belt in place. It's not just a fad.

[Uncle Buck]

I suppose before anyone makes further judgement about the efficacy of the belt around the bell of this instrument they should do an A/B test of it with and without the belt. I make a point of not doing anything to an instrument that doesn't have a proven positive effect on its performance. There is a marked improvement in feel, response and projection with the belt in place. It's not just a fad.

If you decided to add the belt, then I'm sure it made a marked improvement on that particular instrument.

I'm also sure that most of those who used a belt on the bell back when it was in "fashion" had not done much of an objective A/B test. If the fad returns, I predict that would be the case more often than not.

[MartyNeilan]

I suppose before anyone makes further judgement about the efficacy of the belt around the bell of this instrument they should do an A/B test of it with and without the belt. I make a point of not doing anything to an instrument that doesn't have a proven positive effect on its performance. There is a marked improvement in feel, response and projection with the belt in place. It's not just a fad.

If you decided to add the belt, then I'm sure it made a marked improvement on that particular instrument.

I'm also sure that most of those who used a belt on the bell back when it was in "fashion" had not done much of an objective A/B test. If the fad returns, I predict that would be the case more often than not.

Make a brass one and call it a "tone ring" like MW did.

What bell is on that (Martin?) body?

[Uncle Buck]

I was just having some fun with memories of how many of us did do this "as a fad" 20 years ago, myself very much included. If you say it makes a positive difference on this 6/4, then I have no doubt that it does.

Ditto. (That's what I was trying to say before, but he said it better.)

[jeopardymaster]

Sam, I've never tried one of those belts, but knowing your tenacity I have no doubt you've thoroughly vetted the issue on this application. And further along that arc - did you test on the basis of playing stand versus lap as well? Belt + stand versus stand only and belt only? Results?

And this is NOT just a one-off design, right? Because my Neptune is getting heavier or else I am getting older!

[TubaTodd]

Can someone explain the operation of the 5th valve for us? It doesn't appear to be right hand operated. Also, what is that clear/white tubing coming off the rotor?

[Tuba Guy]

Keep in mind that this tuba isn't a finished product yet; the fifth valve trigger still needs to be attached, as it's a little difficult to use with the current pipe-cleaner rig.

[David]

It has the firepower of a massive horn, but plays more nimbly than most 4/4 tubas. Low, mid and high registers are all solid, and the intonation didn't draw any major complaints either. The tone was big but not splattery or overpowering;

I own one of Sam's 4/4's, and these qualities were the first things I noticed about it as well. They are very agile horns from the bottom to the top register, with some good power in them. This 6/4 may very well be my next purchase. Props to Sam.

[Sam Gnagey]

Sam, I've never tried one of those belts, but knowing your tenacity I have no doubt you've thoroughly vetted the issue on this application. And further along that arc - did you test on the basis of playing stand versus lap as well? Belt + stand versus stand only and belt only? Results?

And this is NOT just a one-off design, right? Because my Neptune is getting heavier or else I am getting older!

It's not a "one-off" design. There are parts ordered to make two more.
I'll give the stand and belt options a trial today. Thanks for the suggestion.
I've found that most any horn with a tall bell stack above the body (like a 186) can benefit from a little damping of bell vibration with a belt. My 5/4 Rudy was a good case in point. There's less accoustical feedback to the player, but slotting (feedback through the horn), response and projection usually improve. The bell on this 6/4 is soft, thin and pretty lively. That's why it works here. I have new bells coming that may not need belting.

[oedipoes]

Sam, I've never tried one of those belts, but knowing your tenacity I have no doubt you've thoroughly vetted the issue on this application. And further along that arc - did you test on the basis of playing stand versus lap as well? Belt + stand versus stand only and belt only? Results?

And this is NOT just a one-off design, right? Because my Neptune is getting heavier or else I am getting older!

It's not a "one-off" design. There are parts ordered to make two more.
I'll give the stand and belt options a trial today. Thanks for the suggestion.
I've found that most any horn with a tall bell stack above the body (like a 186) can benefit from a little damping of bell vibration with a belt. My 5/4 Rudy was a good case in point. There's less accoustical feedback to the player, but slotting (feedback through the horn), response and projection usually improve. The bell on this 6/4 is soft, thin and pretty lively. That's why it works here. I have new bells coming that may not need belting.

Is this the same effect as would have a nickel silver bell garland?

Wim

[TubaTodd]

Keep in mind that this tuba isn't a finished product yet; the fifth valve trigger still needs to be attached, as it's a little difficult to use with the current pipe-cleaner rig.

DOH!! Well this is what I get for ogling the tuba and not READING the post. Thank you.

[David]

Can someone explain the operation of the 5th valve for us? It doesn't appear to be right hand operated. Also, what is that clear/white tubing coming off the rotor?

I don't have a picture of my horn to better show you, but with the obvious similarities between the 4/4 and the 6/4, the 5th will be thumb operated. The rotor just isn't in the most conventional place.

Take a look at this picture of Bill Troiano's tuba from the threat "Me & My Tuba, Add you & Yours"
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32776&p=290241" target="_blank" target="_blank

You can see a "wire assembly" leading to the right hand thumb just beside the thumb ring.

[jeopardymaster]

I'm doing great, Robert, or atleast better than I deserve to, thanks.

Re the belt - where does one find such a beast these days? Surely they aren't "off the shelf," right? Or in my case, under the overhang?

[Tuba Guy]

Keep in mind that this tuba isn't a finished product yet; the fifth valve trigger still needs to be attached, as it's a little difficult to use with the current pipe-cleaner rig.

DOH!! Well this is what I get for ogling the tuba and not READING the post. Thank you.

With a horn this beautiful, no one would deny that would definitely happen.

[Art Hovey]

How does the belt's vibration damping compare with that of clear plastic (nalgene?) tubing around the rim? Seems to me that a leather belt is going to collect moisture during the summer (at least around here it would) and lead to tarnish or corrosion. I like the plastic tubing on the bell rim of my Yorkophone because it damps out bell vibrations effectively and also allows me to stand the tuba on its bell on a concrete surface without scratching the metal.
I don't know how a new "garland" would compare, but I do know they rattle when they get old and beat-up.

[Sam Gnagey]

How does the belt's vibration damping compare with that of clear plastic (nalgene?) tubing around the rim? Seems to me that a leather belt is going to collect moisture during the summer (at least around here it would) and lead to tarnish or corrosion. I like the plastic tubing on the bell rim of my Yorkophone because it damps out bell vibrations effectively and also allows me to stand the tuba on its bell on a concrete surface without scratching the metal.
I don't know how a new "garland" would compare, but I do know they rattle when they get old and beat-up.

Good questions and points, Art.
The plastic rim protectors don't offer as much damping influence down into the throat of the bell. That's where this bell seemed to need more. I first put the rim protector on it which helped, but I could tell that there was still too much vibration in the bell.

I just take the belt off a couple times a year and polish the surface under it with a polish that has some tarnish preventive properties. That seems to keep the corrosion from happening.

I don't like the garlands for the reason you quoted, but they probably have a damping effect.

PS: Some have asked about trying this horn. It will be at my shop until the end of July.

[Sam Gnagey]

Sam----

Once you've found the optimum place for the belt on a horn, have you ever tried to solder a ring or band of brass or copper at that same place on the inside of the bell ala the old MW "tone rings?" I have one of those kicking around in my basement somewhere and have wondered about it's use.

BTW, nice looking 6/4.

I have not tried that. The MW horns that I've seen with it seemed very ungainly and top-heavey. I saw several of them with damaged bells that I though might be attributed to the weight of the ring. I also felt that the softer material of the leather does a better job of damping than brass. Perhaps lead would work but, OMG, the weight!
I think your basement is the right place for it. Try the belt, and it's very easy to A/B test.