Your chance to help a vet USMC

[pattonsj]

I play in a group with a fellow tuba player who is a veteren. USMC to be exact. I would say he is "retired" but as I have been corrected by another Marine, Marines don't retire, they just give other guys a chance. Or as they say, once a Marine, always a Marine. Anyway, on with the show.

This Marine played in service bands during his active years but took many years off afterwards. He bought an old Martin tuba a while back (3V, front action, recording bell, BBb) and started playing again. He has polo and it is really starting to take its toll on him. He now walks with canes and has lost most of the feeling in his legs. The problem that he is having is with his upper lip. When he is playing, he gets an uncontrollable vibration from the point of his upper lip and it's driving him crazy. My first thought was focal dystonia but that's just a theory. Anybody ever experienced this or heard of this problem. Any help is appreciated as well as something that could remedy the vibration. He is using a Helleberg 7. Thanks everybody...

[pattonsj]

Thanks to all that responded...wait, no one responded. What a surprise. Looking back at the posts that I've made, on about 90% I was the last poster and on a couple I got no response. I actually thought that people might want to help this guy out. He's a great guy who just needs some advice. I was also wanting to post my opinion and comparison of the Kalison DS and the B&S PT-3 but now realize that there is no point. Thanks anyway...

[lgb&dtuba]

What kind of replies did you expect? You aren't the guy with the problems. You say he has polo. I suspect you meant polio. You're guessing focal dystonia and you don't indicate that you're a doctor. Are you expecting a bunch of non-medical tuba players to diagnose health problems twice removed from the person with the problems?

The fact that no one jumped in with a bunch of speculation about things that they can't possibly know about shows unusual restraint from this group.

[Matt G]

As mentioned above, the best bet here is to have a doctor involved. If it is something that some extra practice/warm up won't cure, than the Marine should seek some professional advice. It could be FD, it could be Bell's Palsy, it could be some other type of nerve issue. Who knows. Even focal dystonia hits everybody differently.

Also, you waited 3-4 days for a response, and both posts were made at a time many folks are simply in bed or watching teevee. A lot of the members here might not be on, especially over a weekend (you know family and stuff), even more so because it is summer.

To get FD diagnosed your friend is probably going to have to travel. IIRC, the big name guys in accurately diagnosing it are at Columbia (NYC) and Harvard (Boston).

Other things to consider:

Player age.

Muscular atrophy.

Nerve damage.

Chemical imbalances.


You see, there is no cut and dry answer, especially over the internet, with little information and no first hand documentation. Anybody who did try to diagnose this over the internet would be foolish.

[TonyTuba]

Tell him to use more air

[pattonsj]

What kind of uncontrollable vibration is it? Since vibrating is the way you make sound, uncontrollable vibration means uncontrollable sound so he can't play properly? Or are you referring to the way playing the tuba kinda tickles your nose when you first started learning?

It's a strange vibration. The very tip of his upper lip vibrates, at what seems like, a faster rate than the rest of the lip. I've gone through some excercises with him but it just gives him more control over the rest of the lip and the very tip just does what it wants. Like I said, he's using a Helleberg 7B. I suggested a mouthpiece with a little wider rim with the inside of the rim being a little sharper. Right direction.

And sorry to everyone about the rant. Well except for the person that thinks you have to be an M.D. to have a personnel opinon lip buzzing. I did a practice session earlier in the day and started having my own tone issues. Strange things that I have never experienced before.

[wrobotuba]

Greetings..

I am sorry to hear about your friend's dilemma. I have a few questions first and then, some possible suggestions. Please pardon my tardy reply. Things keep me pretty well booked over here, and free time usually gets spent playing with my bulldog, rather than doing anything more than glancing at most posts.

Note: You said this gentleman is a Marine. Perhaps the best way to pose the following questions is with more of a "Does this feel different?" "Does that feel different?" etc. approach. His machismo might still be in full gear, and asking him if something "hurts" won't necessarily yield the most accurate of responses.


First question: Is there any discomfort when your friend puts the mouthpiece to his face at the point of the vibrations?

Second: If not, is there any discomfort when he applies (a LITTLE) pressure from the sides (read- if he squeezes it from the sides, not top to bottom)?

Third: Does the vibration occur around a specific harmonic?

Fourth: Does it happen with higher frequency after loud playing/playing for an extended period of time with little to no break?

Fifth: Does the vibration seem to occur after playing in a tessitura which he is unaccustomed to playing in? (read- if he plays high)

Sixth: What is the general position of his head/torso/feet when he is playing? Is his body contorted in any sort of way that looks abnormal to you?

Seventh: Is he exerting any unnecessary energy simply to HOLD the horn in a proper position? (read- is the horn balanced, or is he "balancing" it?)

Finally: Does the lip begin to vibrate only when he is about to play, or does it also vibrate, say, when he is talking?

Most of these questions have pretty obvious answers, I believe, yet I will answer from my own experiences, as I have dealt with this very issue, this is how I was able to work (students and colleagues) through it.

First, you have to look at the bigger picture before you get into the minutia. The easiest thing to look at is his posture. Believe it or not, I am talking about EVERYTHING from the head to the toes. If his feet are all kitty-wampus then there is no way that his body will be in balance and that needs to be taken care of before the horn ever hits the hands.

After good posture has been achieved, look at the horn. Try your best to get an accurate response to the question: Is the horn comfortable to hold? Even if this means taking the horn into your own hands and feeling it out for yourself. If there is ANY discomfort/imbalance, GET A TUBA STAND. PERIOD. They are not so costly, and it doesn't take away any of your masculinity.....REALLY.

Now that you have gotten those things straightened out, (rim shot) this should free up any breathing inefficiencies which would have directly resulted from the first to items being inaccurate. Make sure he is not breathing 'high' but deep, relaxed, big, round, full, etc.

Now, depending on the music you are playing, you should also be aware of how he is approaching the instrument itself. Is he approaching it with a hard gut or with a more relaxed approach. One thing that leads to MAJOR problems with the embouchure is raising the tongue at higher dynamic levels which gives one the "feeling' that they are playing louder because they "feel" that they are moving the air faster. This creates tension all over the body and while may not be the direct cause of his malady, it certainly would be a major contributor.

Mixing things up is also very important. If he is spending time playing marches or whaling on the horn during the breaks, that should always be balanced with slow, comfortable long tones (easy register, easy dynamic) nice and placid. Think beautiful sound and nothing else. Keep it simple. Make sure he is focussing on the best aspects of his playing and striving for the best sound possible....not the biggest or the loudest.

No one will think less of him if he plays some comfortable notes during the break instead of blasting out The Ride of the Valkyries or Lohengrin, or The Damnation of Faust. Conservation. The chops will always try to do what you order them to do. If you abuse them or are irresponsible with them, especially at an advanced age, you are only going to make things harder for yourself.

Another thing to consider is the fact that he USED to play in a service band. He probably, at one time, had a very nice tone and played many things with little to no effort whatsoever. Time changes, and so does the body. The mind is probably very willing, but, ah, the flesh....there's the rub.

His mind knows what he wants and he probably still sends a strong message to his embouchure, but these messages have not been properly maintained. There is also the possibility that he may not remember everything quite the way he did. Not knowing how old this gentleman is or how long he had been away from playing, I cannot say any of that with any certainty.

If he is experiencing any discomfort when applying pressure to the area with the vibrations, he should take a break for a day or two. Chances are that he over exerted himself and the muscles need a chance to regroup and get used to their new assignments. He shouldn't go in like gangbusters on every rehearsal on every piece. It's OK to lay back. Pick your moments. The tuba doesn't always have to be omnipresent. If the band tends to play loud (either due to poor acoustics, or it's the only way some people can "get the notes out") then he will need time to get into that and develop his embouchure to perform.

I suppose I could sum all this up by saying: tension bad.

If you have tension in one area, it WILL, over time (be it a few seconds, minutes, etc.) spread to other areas, and it WILL have an impact on one's tone production. Start big and work to the small. Because, you can start small, but once you establish a new habit, and then you go out to a more global scale, it will probably have to be changed again. In this case, changing the big things is MUCH easier than the little ones, and will probably yield the results you desire.

Time may not heal all wounds, but taking a break now and then from the instrument, even if during a rehearsal, can be the difference between this happening again and again, and possibly more severely with each reoccurrence, or having it subside and allowing him to enjoy playing the tuba for many more years.

Hope it helps.

Wrobleski out

[Rob]

Wow, if what wrobotuba said isn't helpful(and I can't imagine it to not be), then he at least needs to be commended for the time and effort to touch upon so many possible aspects. Surely the OP will be thanking him soon, I'll throw out a thanks for at least giving food for thought and several nuggets we can all probably chew on.

Thanks,
Rob

[Waltski]

Thanks to all that responded...wait, no one responded. What a surprise. Looking back at the posts that I've made, on about 90% I was the last poster and on a couple I got no response. I actually thought that people might want to help this guy out. He's a great guy who just needs some advice. I was also wanting to post my opinion and comparison of the Kalison DS and the B&S PT-3 but now realize that there is no point. Thanks anyway...

This is your chance to graciously thank all those who positively responded...

[pattonsj]

I think that wrobotuba has put a lot of thought into my friends issue and has given me more places to go with this. I did start with question kind of like wrobotuba asked. He doesn't have any pain or "discomfort" per say. It's just that the tip of the top lip vibrating annoys him at best and really wreakes havoc on his tone. I will probably let him borrow a couple of my mouthpieces to see if that make it better or worse. I'll run this by him and work on breathing, posture, and embousure until we narrow it down. I'll update everyone once we go back to the "basics".

And many thanks to everyone that offered their useful opinions. I hope that this can help someone else down the road if they have the same issue. I hate to tell a fellow tubist that I've run out of options. Now I can keep on working this out. Again, thanks to all forr your help. It is greatly appreciated...