Are Alexander Tubas Out of Fashion?

[J.c. Sherman]

Would a Kalison DS and a Yamaha 621 F suffice?



J.c.

[Rob]

To the OP:

Yes they are, so save yourself the shame of what you have, how you look, and find a new sound....while your at it you can feel free to donate any unwanted Alex's or other unfashionable horns(helicons, sousaphones, raincathchers, ect.) to Rob's House of Humble Horns.

FWIW my friends Alex has a lovely sound, takes a little work and if it wasn't a CC I'd BB better on it.

[jeopardymaster]

Set an old 163 next to a new PT-6 rotary version and you'll know in an instant what P & T had in mind. Funny, they don't quite SOUND the same, though, do they?

I have to admit, I do miss my old Alex - but I don't miss the time demands it made on me as a player. A very jealous mistress.

[oedipoes]

Would a Kalison DS and a Yamaha 621 F suffice?



J.c.

For comparison reasons? Yes they would.
And if not, it'd be some nice hornporn anyway.

Wim

[ken k]

so for those of us who have never played one or even know anyone who has ever played one, can someone post some pix and a little history of the legendary Alex models that everyone raves about. and what is it that set these horns apart

I gather from what I have read that their tone was beautiful but intonation was inconsistent or inconvenient.

ken "remember I was a trombone player by trade until i saw the light" k

[Rick Denney]

so for those of us who have never played one or even know anyone who has ever played one, can someone post some pix and a little history of the legendary Alex models that everyone raves about.

http://www.oberloh.com/gallery/alxcctuba.htm

That's a Model 163.

And here's a Model 164 (Kaiser) BBb:

from the Black Swan Jazz Band web page.

Here's a new 163, from the Low Brasswerks site (including a couple of what I assume are Tony Clements's toes):



(Here's the web page, picturing and describing the new versions of these instruments: http://www.lowbrasswerks.com/newtuba.html)

As described to me by one who played an Alex professionally in an orchestra: "They will do anything, but you have to do it." As in, versatile but demanding. After he sold it to get a Yorkbrunner, he had an opportunity many years later to try it again, and he set it aside after about 10 minutes. His reason was variously, "It was too much work" and "I was afraid the maestro would like it."

I think of the Alex as the tuba for a younger generation of tubas players. There's nothing of Jacobs's "old man's tuba" in the Alex. But if you had the chops, it had the sound.

Rick "who remembers the brooding and commanding sound, but who could never produce that sound himself on an Alex" Denney

[bort]

My only Alex experience was with the 2 Alex F's that were at BBC about a year and a half ago. Nice tubas, a lot of fun to play, and sounded really nice. And certainly did no part to "cover up" anything on my end. It made me think -- it'd be great for a pro who plays a lot every day, but not for a duffer like me.

I'd be really interested to hear how the brand-damn-new Alex's that Steve Ferguson has play. Gorgeous (looking) tubas!

[eupher61]

The other, I have no idea which model it is/was...a 1970 vintage CC, the horn I learned CC on. Unfortunately, when the third partial C was in tune, the 2nd partial was only in tune with 4-5 (IIRC) it's been almost 30 years.

Of course, with 4-5 down, that note is no longer the "second partial".

Probably wasn't the second partial in any case. Wouldn't you normally tune a 3rd partial to G, or am I confused? (Assuming C tuba, not F.)

Yep, Donn, you caught my screw up. 4th partial C was in tune, the 2nd partial was way out, and needed the alternate fingering. Which, as the bearded one noted, is no longer the 2nd partial.

Point is, that pitch (C below the staff) could NOT be easily played in tune as open.

[Lee Stofer]

To address a question way back in the thread,
My understandfing is that back when Alexander was trying to crank out a number of tubas to sell to Giardinelli and Custom Music, there was one master craftsman supervising up to five apprentices. Each was assembling a tuba, including the master craftsman, which yielded at least one great tuba out of every 6 assembled.

Imperfections from the factory are not as unusual as you might think, and were common 30+ years ago.

I have worked on 30-year-old Alex tubas that have vast areas underneath the ferrules with no solder, which tells me they were not fully tinned at the factory, and have been therefore leaking since new. The branches and bells, valves and slide tubing are all 1st class, and when the time is spent to carefully finish every detail, they are quite wonderful.

I have had the opportunity to take a couple of Alex 163 CC's out and play on them, as well as two BBb's. These instruments all have a uniquely Alexander sound, which I would describe as very full and meaty, dark and commanding. When I was stationed in San Antonio, Texas as a young man, I enjoyed going to San Antonio Symphony concerts and hearing Michael Sanders driving the orchestra from the back row with his Alexander 163 CC. The life and color that he infused into the orchestra's sound was amazing.

There was a comment made something like this; "I just don't understand why people think Alexanders are hard to play.", etc. My answer is this; if you are a physically strong, world-class player, you can play virtually anything made and make it sound good, because you have the strength and skills to do so, and if your instrument of choice, because of its sound, happens to have quirks, you get used to compensating for them. Some people will say that an Alexander is hard-to-play because it may have defects in assembly, or perhaps because it is so foreign in comparison to what they are used to playing. At any rate, Alexander tubas have never been for the faint-of-heart.

For size comparison, an Alexander 163 is not much different in outside dimensions to a Mirafone 186. The big difference is the valve bore size, as the Mirafone has a .770" bore and the Alexander an approx. .810" bore. I believe the 164, their kaiser tuba, has a .847" bore.

[J.c. Sherman]

My Alex 164 was probably once assemble well - it's much older than most. But as I've mentioned, someone with a sick sense of humor or a poor definition of "repair" assembled much of mine. Over the years I've repaired things along the way, and it improves every time.

My former Alex 163 was absolutely a phenominal player and looked as if much of it had been reassembled. It certainly played beautifully!

The other thing I think which makes the Alex bigger is the bell throat... it's just slightly bigger, I think. But the receiver is BIG by almost every standard (have they reduced the size in the last 3 decades?) leading to a very capacious bore. As a result they're almost as open as blowing into a Hoover vacuum - switched on.

On my 164, I cannot find a mouthpiece which will fit it! I can't even find a blank big enough!

They are not for the meek, to be sure... BUT - they make more sound with less effort, and it's a sexy sound. But you have to let them do the work!

J.c.S.

[tclements]

I love mine

[J.c. Sherman]

I love mine

Wow! I thought these were a lot less common. I had and F like this for a while which I procured through John Turk. Great horn, but eventully made it a conventional instrument with 5 valves. Sold it to a very grateful college.

J.c.

[harrell]

In relation to this, I have also noticed that we don't see much out of Rudolph Meinl tubas much any more. Is it the same kind of deal as the Alex tubas? The sound was great when they came into the spotlight and then newer horns got just as good a sound with better quality horns? I had a Rudy F tuba and it sounded great but was a bear to get in tune.

Jason

[TheBerlinerTuba]

No they are not..1958 163 BBb and it plays just fine.
cheers
2165

[oedipoes]

nice !

[Mark E. Chachich]

I have been playing an Alexander 163 since 1975. My observation (opinion) about Alexander intonation is that the notes have a wider slot than most tubas. With a good Alexander the note will be where you put it for good or bad (with some alternate fingerings and some slide pulling). The Alexander tuba will not help you like many tubas. To me my Alex is saying "whatever you tell me, I will do". I think that many other tubas say "whatever you tell me, I will help you do" (the musician still has to place the note correctly). Also, the sound is why some of us still play Alexanders.

Mark

[tubamlb]

Hi
I Have the 163 with the CC and BBb slides
I also purchased from Germany The 164 that was talked about , see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28269&start=0&hilit=alex+bbb" target="_blank
All Great Tubas for the players that want to put the time and work to play large bore Horns
I also use a M&M TU2000 and M&MTU210 and a 5 valve 186, But nothing plays like an Alex
Thanks
Michael

[TexTuba]

I recently picked up an OLD Alex F and have been really working to figure it out. I had never really played an F aside from music conventions and, even then, did not know what I was doing. This horn, by FAR, is the most difficult horn I have played. It is quite unforgiving and will make me sound like a fool if I am not paying attention. However, the sound that can come out of this horn is TRULY unlike anything that I have ever played. This horn, as tiny as it really is, can keep up comfortably with 186s. I just say enough how much I love this horn!!!

[Cameron Gates]

[quote="Rick Denney
And here's a Model 164 (Kaiser) BBb:

from the Black Swan Jazz Band web page.
[/quote]

I know that horn. That was Kit Johnson's. He bought it in Germany while he was in the army. When he returned to school at Oregon we all had a shot at playing it. What a monster. Almost unplayable by mortals. It had to have MP adaptors to accept a mortal's mouthpiece and guy wires to hold it up. That thing made a Miraphone 190 seem like a toy. I believe he traded it for a Hirsbrunner Eb shortly after returning to school!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!

I have since seen and played other Alexander tubas called "164" and have found them to be much smaller that Kit's beast. Could Kit's be a long-forgotten model?

BTW, Kit seems to own a ton of very interesting instrument, including a certain copper jewel that has a habit of showing up on Ebay every other month.

[ZNC Dandy]

[quote="Rick Denney
And here's a Model 164 (Kaiser) BBb:

from the Black Swan Jazz Band web page.

I know that horn. That was Kit Johnson's. He bought it in Germany while he was in the army. When he returned to school at Oregon we all had a shot at playing it. What a monster. Almost unplayable by mortals. It had to have MP adaptors to accept a mortal's mouthpiece and guy wires to hold it up. That thing made a Miraphone 190 seem like a toy. I believe he traded it for a Hirsbrunner Eb shortly after returning to school!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!

I have since seen and played other Alexander tubas called "164" and have found them to be much smaller that Kit's beast. Could Kit's be a long-forgotten model?

BTW, Kit seems to own a ton of very interesting instrument, including a certain copper jewel that has a habit of showing up on Ebay every other month.[/quote]

I'd love to get my mitts on that beast!