RVW concerto tremolo fingering

[Wyvern]

I am currently working on the Vaughan Williams Concerto on my PT-15 for playing with orchestra in November. I have previously performed on Eb so know the work well, but am undecided on the best fingerings to use for some tremolo on F.

In the first movement at (2) there is C to Db. Fingering 0 to 2+3 seems awkward. I am trying holding down 5 and using Eb fingering 1+2 to 1. Does anyone have better suggestion?

However in the 3rd movement at 3rd bar/measure of (10) that does not seem to work for me down an octave, so I am using 0 to 2+3. What do other players use on F?

Thanks!

[Bob Kolada]

For the higher one you could trill from 0 to 1 (perhaps with 1 pushed all the way in), but on the lower one I think you should just woodshed the 0 to 23 movement (wiggle your fingers while driving or something).

How far will your 5th slide pull?

[Wyvern]

How far will your 5th slide pull?

About 2 1/2 inches

[Alex C]

I have always used and taught a first valve trill to the Db. True, it is a flat partial but you can start it off open to 2&3 and shift to first valve.

My problem with the 2&3 trill is that it involves the use of both radial and ulnar muscles and is terribly hard to coordinate exactly. Others may not have this problem but I've noticed it as a fairly common issue.

[Wyvern]

unless your mouthpiece is a bucket.

No, PT-65

[Wyvern]

I am surprised those trills don't fall easier on F tuba, when one considers the concerto was originally written for F. That's what made me think I must be missing some alternative fingering trick.

It looks like daily practice with 2+3 is in order

[imperialbari]

I am surprised those trills don't fall easier on F tuba, when one considers the concerto was originally written for F. That's what made me think I must be missing some alternative fingering trick.

It looks like daily practice with 2+3 is in order

But the point is that it was written for the compensating Boosey F tuba. There the Db is fingered a minor sixth down from the 5th partial open A: 3+4

The trill then is done with 2.

How much can you pull your 5th slide? Enough to temporarily play the Db in tune?

Klaus

[peter birch]

do you think that this could be just a special effect that he wanted, rather than precise, in tune tremelos? After all, there is an awful lot going on in orchestra while the tuba is doing it. It is not even a proper ornamant, there are a couple of trills writen in where he wants them ( and the one before figure 2 in the 3rd mvmt is the same as the tremelos in the opening), At figure 2 in the 1st mvmt the most important note, surely, is the first note of bar 3, to establish the new key, and in the 3rd movement the music is going so fast that the tremelos are over before anyone will notice them.
You could almost lip trill them, but then it would loose the dramatic visual effect

[Wyvern]

I have always used and taught a first valve trill to the Db.

I just tried that and it worked well on upper octave - thanks! Yes, the Db is 20% flat, but who is going to notice for a trill?

[bill]

I am suggesting this because it might be useful to some although it is not the common practice. It works very well, though.

In the 1st movement C-Db trill, I trill 5 to open. I can do this because I have a Meinl Weston 182 with the 5th valve set for a 2-3 combination. It is sooooooo easy to trill with that configuration. The 5th valve is also positioned before the other 4; the lead pipe goes through the 5th valve before entering the other valves' block. I don't know the effect of that because I have never tried this trill on any other F tuba.

Take it for what it is worth. YMMV

[imperialbari]

I have always used and taught a first valve trill to the Db.

I just tried that and it worked well on upper octave - thanks! Yes, the Db is 20% flat, but who is going to notice for a trill?

The Db is flat?

Klaus

[ztuba]

play it on a Eb and everything is gravy

[iiipopes]

play it on a Eb and everything is gravy

RVW being a UK composer, and until recently the tuba most often used, even in orchestra, being an Eb, ztuba has a point.

[Wyvern]

RVW being a UK composer, and until recently the tuba most often used, even in orchestra, being an Eb, ztuba has a point.

Well it was originally written for F tuba (Eb's only being used in UK orchestras from the late 60's) and anyway I am just in the process of selling my Eb to concentrate practicing on F.

PS To my ears it sounds better on F (just listen to the Hilgers recording)!

[Bob Kolada]

OR, Jonathan, you could sell that PT thing and buy a Miraphone Star LIGHT (as to get the bigger Star when you are selling a similar sized Eb would be relatively silly)!

[imperialbari]

Well it was originally written for F tuba (Eb's only being used in UK orchestras from the late 60's) and anyway I am just in the process of selling my Eb to concentrate practicing on F.

PS To my ears it sounds better on F (just listen to the Hilgers recording)!

As hinted I think that C-Db trill was made for a specific alternative fingering on the compensating Boosey F made in a short run, probably less than 10, before 1930. That fingering would brighten the trill.

You have decided trilling the 1st valve while holding 2+3 down. The C comes out flat, but that can be remedied at the same time as the trill is brightened. You will need a higher windpressure. Use the fingerings mentioned, but hold down the 4th valve also.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

OR, Jonathan, you could sell that PT thing and buy a Miraphone Star LIGHT (as to get the bigger Star when you are selling a similar sized Eb would be relatively silly)!

I don't want to start an Eb v F debate, as they are both great! However, size wise the PT-15 is actually bigger than any Eb I have played, so no way compatible with a Star Light

I am playing it on F because I have personally fallen for my goldbrass PT-15's special tone.

[iiipopes]

I am playing it on F because I have personally fallen for my goldbrass PT-15's special tone.

The best reason of all.

[Rick Denney]

play it on a Eb and everything is gravy

RVW being a UK composer, and until recently the tuba most often used, even in orchestra, being an Eb, ztuba has a point.

The standard orchestral tuba in Great Britain until the late 60's was the five-valved uncompensated Barlow F tuba, a small instrument with a bell hardly bigger than a euphonium. It probably had more in common with a small French C tuba than with current instruments.

The Eb tubas were used in bands, and at the time I think even those were in high-pitch, just to make the divide between band and orchestra that much more difficult to cross.

Catelinet's four-valve compensated F tuba was probably unusual.

As the story goes, Fletcher was unable to locate an F tuba, and B&H wasn't making any more, so he decided to use Eb. He altered it to suit him, leading to the Sovereign model. This all happened a decade and ore after the RVW was premiered. At the U.S. premiere, Bill Bell used his King Franken-F.

I can't play the trill at all. I usually improvise something different there that sounds musical to me. After all, I'm not practicing it for performance, unless our cat constitutes a bona fide audience. And she is usually at the back door meowing to go out when I'm hacking my way through bits of the RVW.

Rick "suspecting RVW wasn't that concerned with what valves were easy to push" Denney

[peter birch]

[/quote]Rick "suspecting RVW wasn't that concerned with what valves were easy to push" Denney[/quote]

I suspect that RVW is not alone among composers in such a lack of that particular concern