Advice for getting a new tuba

[BigBrodtuba]

I was wondering if anyone knows if you have to have a C tuba for college or can you have a Eb tuba that can do pretty much anything because I'am thinking about getting a Willson 3400 and was wondering what everyone else thinks about it.

Thank you, Broderick

[jonesbrass]

First, talk to the tuba professor at the school you're going to. He may prefer that you play CC, he may not. Second, personal opinion here, for now, stick with the horn you're familiar with. If that's a BBb/CC/Eb/F, great. Third, the Willson 3400s I've played are fantastic. As close to a do-it-all horn as you can get, IMO. Get to know the professor and what he wants, get to know yourself and build your playing skills, regardless of the fundamental pitch of the horn.

[Bob Kolada]

And if he/she does prefer that you play a C tuba, so what? He won't be the one buying it and playing it!

I haven't played a 3400 enough to get a good read on it, but the MW 2141 is awesome beyond awesome. That's what I would be getting if I could actually hold it correctly while playing. Stupid long arms.....

Do you already play Eb? If you've only played Bb, it'll take you a while to get used to the different partials. C tuba is easier as it's only one step off, but Eb and F can make your brain halt at first!

[Bob Kolada]

Also in terms of which key. For contra bass tubas CC's are known for having a cleaner more centered/focused sound than BBb's (BBb = more broad and dark/ominous). Thus CC's are more common in Orchestras than BBb's as a general rule. Bands usually used more BBb's as a general rule. The Eb's are a bass tuba more comparable to the BBb's in terms of broadness, that still retain some of the nimbleness you find in the F tubas (F is compairable to CC, but in a higher key; more focused/centered.) Some argue that they (Eb) have better low registers than the F's. I think that the F tuba designs of today have largely fixed that issue. That arguement is really dissolving with the advancements in the more modern designs appearing over the last several, several years.

Oooooh, them's some fighting words Paul (you must have read Wikipedia or something!)!

[iiipopes]

Also in terms of which key. For contra bass tubas CC's are known for having a cleaner more centered/focused sound than BBb's (BBb = more broad and dark/ominous). Thus CC's are more common in Orchestras than BBb's as a general rule....

Don't go there -- you absolutely can NOT get back in this lifetime. More bandwidth on this forum has debated that than just about the rest of it combined.

[Rick Denney]

Also in terms of which key. For contra bass tubas CC's are known for having a cleaner more centered/focused sound than BBb's (BBb = more broad and dark/ominous). Thus CC's are more common in Orchestras than BBb's as a general rule. Bands usually used more BBb's as a general rule. The Eb's are a bass tuba more comparable to the BBb's in terms of broadness, that still retain some of the nimbleness you find in the F tubas (F is compairable to CC, but in a higher key; more focused/centered.) Some argue that they (Eb) have better low registers than the F's. I think that the F tuba designs of today have largely fixed that issue. That arguement is really dissolving with the advancements in the more modern designs appearing over the last several, several years.

Oooooh, them's some fighting words Paul (you must have read Wikipedia or something!)!

Dammit! That means I'm going to have to go back over there and attack it again. I've tried to weed out the myth and lore when it comes to the different pitches of instruments in that article on several occasions, but it takes too many life-minutes to fight that losing battle.

To the OP: Unless you don't own an instrument at all, put off buying something new for as long as possible. Here are my reasons:

1. Your objectives will change in college. Trust me.

2. Your perception of good tuba sound will change.

3. Your strengths and weaknesses will become more clear to you. (There's the old story about the college golf coach who was told by a delusional incoming freshman not to "mess up his swing." His response, "Son, you don't even have a swing, yet.")

4. Your musical tastes will become clearer to you, even if they don't change outright.

5. Your skill in assessing the appropriateness of any given instrument to your objectives and abilities will improve dramatically.

6. If you learn to make music on what you have now (or even on the college's instruments), then you'll be able to make music on whatever you ultimately choose for yourself.

7. You will need to be competent on tubas of all pitches eventually. After all, lots of graduate-degreed high-end tuba players earn their daily bread playing a Bb sousaphone while wearing a uniform. Don't allow yourself to become biased on the subject yet.

There are professional tuba players who do just fine with only an Eb (or even an F) tuba, but they are not common in the U.S. If you buck a trend, your reasons for doing so should be unassailable, and you should be able to defend that position in musical terms sufficiently to eliminate doubt. That's hard to do as an incoming freshman, it seems to me.

Rick "who thinks the Willson 3400 is an amazing instrument, but still..." Denney

[Bob Kolada]

The Wikipedia comment was a joke regarding the internet and all the silly stuff you see on it (except this part!).


I still disagree with the tendencies part. A Miraphone 184 Bb and a Conn 20J are certainly different enough to even me, and I think all tubas sound just about the same to people listening to them. "My" 187 Bb sounds much, much cleaner and focused than all those tubby PT6's. And BOTH (rotary Bb and large piston C) can be described as being a very common type within their key and just common tubas overall.

And is a 3400 really that different from a 186C or a 2J, both of which are regularly stated on here as being all the tuba most people will ever need?

[The Big Ben]

If you want/need a new horn because you are losing the one you are playing because you are graduating from HS, I would suggest buying a used horn of the type that could be sold for limited loss if you need to sell it because your needs change with the college experience or you decide serious tuba study is not what you wish to pursue.

[BigBrodtuba]

Thank you all for the advice I just had talk with the professor and my private lessons teacher and found out what I need.

[b.williams]

So what did they say???

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Also in terms of which key. For contra bass tubas CC's are known for having a cleaner more centered/focused sound than BBb's (BBb = more broad and dark/ominous). Thus CC's are more common in Orchestras than BBb's as a general rule. Bands usually used more BBb's as a general rule. The Eb's are a bass tuba more comparable to the BBb's in terms of broadness, that still retain some of the nimbleness you find in the F tubas (F is compairable to CC, but in a higher key; more focused/centered.) Some argue that they (Eb) have better low registers than the F's. I think that the F tuba designs of today have largely fixed that issue. That arguement is really dissolving with the advancements in the more modern designs appearing over the last several, several years.

I still disagree with the tendencies part. A Miraphone 184 Bb and a Conn 20J are certainly different enough to even me, and I think all tubas sound just about the same to people listening to them. "My" 187 Bb sounds much, much cleaner and focused than all those tubby PT6's. And BOTH (rotary Bb and large piston C) can be described as being a very common type within their key and just common tubas overall.

And is a 3400 really that different from a 186C or a 2J, both of which are regularly stated on here as being all the tuba most people will ever need?

In general, I agree with Paul's comments. There are always exceptions, as Bob points out, but taken en masse, Paul's observations have validity.

If you were to play 100 different Bb's (of all vintages), and 100 different C's (of all vintages), I believe that you would notice that trends would emerge, which would support Paul's assertions. It doesn't mean that all Bb's HAVE to be more broad/dark/clumsy/ominous, but history provides a lot of examples of Bb horns, which support many of those characterizations.

Having said all of that, I have encountered some wonderful Bb's, which play very centered, and focused.

[Rick Denney]

If you were to play 100 different Bb's (of all vintages), and 100 different C's (of all vintages), I believe that you would notice that trends would emerge, which would support Paul's assertions. It doesn't mean that all Bb's HAVE to be more broad/dark/clumsy/ominous, but history provides a lot of examples of Bb horns, which support many of those characterizations.

I bet I've played a 100 different Bb tubas and 100 different C tubas. The trends related to the size and shape of the instrument are noticeable, but so overwhelm any other consideration that I don't think I could attribute any trend to the extra two feet of tubing.

A Miraphone 186 CC feels a little more responsive than a 186 Bb to me, but I can't tell any difference in the sound. Countering that, I've played a few Holton CC-345's and a few Holton BB-345's, and some are amazing while others howl at the moon, with no apparent relationship to the length of the bugle. In fact, my observation is that the Bb 345 is much more likely to have manageable intonation. Broadening the big tuba category to other yorkophones, I've played a bunch of them, and very few in C that were more responsive or that had a cleaner, more colorful, less woofy sound than my Holton. I've played Rudy Meinl 5/4 Bb and C tubas, and did not find that the C was any more responsive than the Bb, or that it produced any cleaner sound. One of the most responsive large tubas I've played was an ancient King 1235--the rotary model from back in the 30's. It beat the stuffing out of the C versions I've been fortunate enough to blow some notes on--instruments that had been owned by Bill Bell.

No fair comparing a Conn 20J to a Meinl-Weston 6450.

Eb is a tougher comparison, because so many of the comparisons are between ancient American Eb basses and modern European F tubas, or between modern Besson compensating Eb tubas and rotary F tubas. The differences in the architecture of the instrument surely overwhelm the extra foot and a half of tubing, it seems to me. The Willson 3400 and 3200 bass tubas don't seem particularly different to me, and both are much more like each other than either is like the 3200R (which is my preference of the three).

I think it's entirely reasonable that if a bass tuba is more responsive and playable than a contrabass tuba, then a C tuba ought to cover part of that distance. But the overall size and shape (as those affect the resonance) of the instrument has such a more significant effect on the responsiveness and playability of the instrument that I'm not sure it's easy to experience that effect, except for maybe comparing a couple of Miraphone 186's.

All the arguments along these lines, and the less defensible arguments concerning which tubas are more suited to what types of music (based on the number of sharps or flats), seem to me post-hoc justifications for what was probably just tuba players doing what a few of the best tuba players in their region did for whatever reason. August Helleberg had a C tuba, and he was the best and most well-paid tuba player in the U.S. at the turn of the last century, and that surely must have influenced others, including Bell, Donatelli, Jacobs, etc., etc., either directly or indirectly. Sometimes, common practice becomes doctrine without any intent on the part of the trendsetters.

I will acknowledge that in the U.S., there is probably a trend in the difference between what Bb tubas and C tubas sound like to audience members, when looking across the whole population of tuba players. But that's because amateurs and school kids are over-represented among Bb tuba players (and with tubas often in questionable condition, and originally purchased at the lower end of the market), and professionals and the professionally-trained are over-represented among C tuba players (that were purchased at the high end of the market and are more likely to be professionally maintained). I would not expect that same trend in, say, Germany.

Rick "thinking this is another cause-and-effect discussion" Denney