Valve Spring Question

[Himes]

Hello all,

How often should piston valve springs be replaced? Mine seem to rattle around in their casings a bit (I get a little buzz from some of them) and are certainly not all a uniform size. Is this a cause for concern? The horn in question is a used horn that I've had for about six months. I have no idea how old the springs are, but it would not surprise me to learn that they are quite aged.

Thanks,

Himes

[Mike-ICR]

I'm with Bloke. I've never experienced "noisy" springs or even sluggish action caused by a spring that was the right size and undamaged. I suggest taking the horn to a tech and having it fitting with a new set of springs. There are many different types of springs and mismatched springs (size/strength) can cause playability issues. It may not solve all of the problems you describe but it will make a HUGE difference.

[Dan Schultz]

How often should piston valve springs be replaced? Mine seem to rattle around in their casings a bit (I get a little buzz from some of them) and are certainly not all a uniform size. Is this a cause for concern? ....

Get down to your local tech and get a new set of springs. The favorite 'trick' for kids (and some grownups) to compensate to 'sticky' pistons is to stretch the springs a bit. Although this may bring immediate relief to the problem... it won't fix the situation. Those springs need to be properly sized to fit the bottoms of the pistons and the bottom caps... and to be the correct length. Once a spring is stretched... it's toast. They normally don't fatigue or break.

[hald]

I mainly agree with the previous posts, except I bought a brand new euphonium a few months ago that came with noisy springs. Because I have 2 other euphoniums to compare to, the noisy springs on the new instrument was very annoying. I took it back to the shop and bought new springs (about $4 a piece) and it cured the problem. I don't think the original springs properly fit the indents in the bottom caps.

[oedipoes]

I've never experienced any significant "fatigue" in piston valve springs, even over a significant number of years.

I have a besson prestige 2052 from 2003. I've been playing the thing virtually every day since then.
If I compare the spring tension between 1st 2nd and 3rd valve, the 1st one has become much 'softer' over time.
That could be explained by the 1st valve being far more oftenly used than the other 3 valves. Maybe it has become slightly shorter, and hereby applies less force to the piston?

F(spring force) = k(spring constant, depending on material and shape) X d(distance that a spring is compressed or tensioned)

I believe the material of these springs is bronze, if I remember the catalogue well, don't know if that might have something to do with the fatigue.

Just my experience,

Wim

[Dan Schultz]

...I have a besson prestige 2052 from 2003. I've been playing the thing virtually every day since then.
If I compare the spring tension between 1st 2nd and 3rd valve, the 1st one has become much 'softer' over time....

I've had many players request lighter springs in the 3rd valve on three-piston horns and also in the 4th valve on valvesets where the 4th is mounted next to the 3rd. Note that your index finger (1st valve) on most people is the strongest and most used finger... (except in the city of New York where the middle finger is used more! )

I'm certainly not disputing your observation that your 1st spring seems to be lighter than the others. Merely pointing out that the springs may have been switched at some point.

[Mike-ICR]

I've never experienced any significant "fatigue" in piston valve springs, even over a significant number of years.

I have a besson prestige 2052 from 2003. I've been playing the thing virtually every day since then.
If I compare the spring tension between 1st 2nd and 3rd valve, the 1st one has become much 'softer' over time.

Springs can be 'broken-in' just like any other mechanism. Variants in manufacturing, tempering, alloy and use can cause springs to fatigue differently. I know the 3rd on my 3+1 seems strong because I rarely use it (out of tune) and my ring finger is relatively weaker. I think we're talking about significant fatigue or failure that would cause problems like noise or action issues.

[oedipoes]

...I have a besson prestige 2052 from 2003. I've been playing the thing virtually every day since then.
If I compare the spring tension between 1st 2nd and 3rd valve, the 1st one has become much 'softer' over time....

I've had many players request lighter springs in the 3rd valve on three-piston horns and also in the 4th valve on valvesets where the 4th is mounted next to the 3rd. Note that your index finger (1st valve) on most people is the strongest and most used finger... (except in the city of New York where the middle finger is used more! )

I'm certainly not disputing your observation that your 1st spring seems to be lighter than the others. Merely pointing out that the springs may have been switched at some point.

It are still the original springs.
They had all the same strength when new, and after 6 years there is a very noticeable difference.
If I shake the euphonium up and down, only the 1st valve moves.

Wim