Is a CC horn Wrong??

[Dan Schultz]

Assuming your tuba solo is written in bass clef... the key of the tuba doesn't make any difference. Your band director must have been a percussion major.

[smurphius]

The tuba is indeed not a transposing instrument. All tuba music is written to be played on any keyed tuba, however the fingerings will be different from each tuba. CC tubas are in place in any setting, orchestral as well as band. Your band director might need to look more into tubas before giving such advice.

[Dan Schultz]

The tuba is indeed not a transposing instrument. All tuba music is written to be played on any keyed tuba

....

This is assuming you are playing from bass clef music and not reading a British brass band score.... where the tuba parts are written in treble clef AND transposed for Eb or BBb tuba.

[Dan Schultz]

I can see where he would think that it may be the wrong horn for jazz band. but for band? as long as you know the right fingerings and can playi it in tune I don't see a problem. as far as jazzband he may hant a more trombone sound is all.

I didn't even think of that! Tubas don't sound much like rombones... do they?... especially not the CC ones.

[Steve Inman]

Your band director's opinion is unfortunate. You might ask him if he's aware that in Germany, the "orchestra" tubas are mostly F, and sometimes BBb. In England, the "orchestra" tubas are sometimes Eb. In the USA, the CC is the preferred choice. So one could conclude that the key of the tuba isn't at all important -- only the capability of the player to play his/her tuba well and in tune. (If those "high class" orchestras will allow tubas in all 4 keys to be played, why not a high school band?)

If you wanted to approximate a bass 'bone as closely as possible, you might hunt for a 3/4 size F tuba, or a cimbasso. But I bet the director can't tell the difference between a BBb and a CC tuba if they are of the same approximate size and shape, were he blindfolded.

Having owned and played tubas in all 4 keys, the only significant difference (assuming a reasonable quality level) is the timbre differences between larger contrabass and smaller bass tubas. But as mentioned above, this will be very minor between similar sized BBb and CC.

Good luck,

[tubaman5150]

Your band director sounds like a woodwind player who didn't bother paying attention in orchestration.
There are no logical reasons to say something like that. This is only sheer ingnorance.
This is just another example of a C minus college grad who thinks his degree magically endowed him with an education.
Play your tuba. The dodo will never know the difference if you don't tell him.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I really don't think that it is a good idea to encourage any high school student to disrespect his/her teacher. There is enough of that in society already.

Having said that, of course there is no real difference bertween CC, and BBb, from the audience's point of view.

My question to the original poster would be: Are you sure that you are every bit as good at playing a CC tuba, as you are at BBb? Perhaps your band director's comment is a veiled way of suggesting that you are not quite there yet?

Another point to consider: Did your band director ask you after jazz band rehearsal? If the solo you were talking about, was an improvised solo in jazz band, then I do think there there is some validity to your band director's concern. As a student, learning to improvise is challenging enough, without littering your solo with all kinds of 23, & 123 fingerings. In that way, you are hindering your ability to learn improvising.

Good luck!

[Gorilla Tuba]

There is clear concensus that CC is fine for band on this board. However, please ask yourself why your band director made these comments. He is clearly uninformed about tubas, but his comments may have been made because you weren't sounding as good on your new tuba as you were before. Maybe he is a whacko like some have suggested, but it is possible that you may need to get a little more comfortable with new fingerings and pitch tendencies before bringing it to band.

I have never heard you play so take my comments lightly. If you honestly think you are playing just fine on the CC, then the band director may indeed be wrong. Chances are that even though he knows nothing about tubas, he does know what right notes and in-tune notes sound like (hopefully).

[hurricane_harry]

well if your not getting the right sound in jazz band they may be because that you REALLY should be playing bass trombone. when i joined jazz i wanted to do jazz tuba but my band director told me if i wanted to do jazz i would have to learn bass trombone, because most the parts were originally written for it. i would suggest asking your band director if theres a bass trombone you can use. its a good skill to have, because if you choose to play in one of the smaller symphanies. you'll be playing bass trombone. the valve to slide change is wierd, but a good learning experience

[runelk]

I'm pretty sure that all tuba players in the Washington, DC military bands play CC tubas. I know that the AF Band tuba players (9 tubists) all play CC.

Albert Islas
U.S. Air Force Band
Washington, DC

[Paul S]

well if your not getting the right sound in jazz band they may be because that you REALLY should be playing bass trombone. when i joined jazz i wanted to do jazz tuba but my band director told me if i wanted to do jazz i would have to learn bass trombone, because most the parts were originally written for it. i would suggest asking your band director if theres a bass trombone you can use. its a good skill to have, because if you choose to play in one of the smaller symphanies. you'll be playing bass trombone. the valve to slide change is wierd, but a good learning experience

I am one of those who like the German use of the F/BBb tuba combo for orchestra but I do love the sound of a good CC tuba and especially in Jazz.

Anyone who feels there is no place for tuba, and CC tuba in particular, in Jazz should head to THE MODERN JAZZ TUBA PROJECT at http://www.mjtproject.com/ and be prepared to change their opinion!

They have some sound files on the site at: http://webpages.charter.net/mjtproject/soundfiles.html

After that, head to Amazon or your nearest retailer and get their new album "FAVORITE THINGS" immediately. It is a wonderful CD to have.

[Lew]

I find htis the easiest way to explain different tubas.

on a BBb tuba concert F is open. Now on a CC tuba you have to put down 1 valve to hit concert F. And that pitch is a concert F.

understand?

The reason you press down 1st on a CC is because its open note is a concert G. There for you hold 1st to move the note to a concert F.

I don't know exactly why, but tubas dont change key when you get a different tuba. Their fingering patterns change.

So on a F tuba, open is F but the fingering pattern is (way) different.

Of course different tubas "change keys." A CC tuba has a CC as its fundamental while a BBb has BBb, an F F, etc. The fingering pattern is exactly the same starting from the fundamental, i. e. a Bb scale (starting from the Bb below the staff) on a BBb would be 0, 1+3 (or 4), 1+2 (or 3), 1, 0, 1+2 (or 3), 2, 0. A C scale starting from the C above that Bb would have the exact same fingering pattern on a CC tuba, as would an Eb scale starting from the Eb below the staff on an Eb tuba. Other scales follow the same pattern on each tuba in their relative positions.

What I believe you are referring to as the keys not changing is the fact that bass clef music is not transposed. That means that what you see is in concert pitch so to play it on an instrument in a different key you have to use the fingerings for the concert pitch. This is in contrast to the music for most other instruments, and for most instruments in brass bands, where the music is written so that the fundamental pitch of the horn is seen as a C. In brass band music therefore the Eb and Bb tuba players would be using the same fingerings for the notes shown in the same position on the page. The C would sound as an Eb on the Eb tuba and a BBb on a BBb tuba though.

[Chuck(G)]

If your Dad told you that operating an automobile while wearing tennis shoes causes wrecks, that statement (very arguably) would be blatantly incorrect.

What a moroon! Everyone knows that wearing a hat causes wrecks.

[tubaman5150]

I really don't think that it is a good idea to encourage any high school student to disrespect his/her teacher. There is enough of that in society already.

No offense, but nobody is really doing that. It certainly wasn't my intent.
Besides, its the right of every student to vent about their teachers after class is over.

My point is that everyone was giving very logical reasons for something that was done out of ignorance. It certainly is possible that since the director didn't hear what he wanted out of tuba and he made a spurious correlation about the tuba's key.
A band director has one of the toughest, most underpaid, and most impacting jobs out there. They have to be a musician, and educator, and a full time disciplinarian. I feel it is not a job for the ill-informed and under-educated. I'm not saying this man is like that, but an educator's job should have zero percent conjecture.
The reason for this is that most students take their band director's word as gospel. Its a big responsibility to be correct. Especially when you tell some kid that just dropped a wad of money on a CC tuba that he can't use it in band. How do you think the parents would feel about that?

Please no flames, folks. These are only my opnions based on my experiences as an educator and a student.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Happy TubaThanksgiving®

:-)

[tubaman5150]

The band directors (at least in my city) of the few good-sounding bands readily admit to ignorance. How can any one person know "everything"? Rather than the shoot-from-the-hip opinions/comments that (apparently) this young person's band director offered regarding the new CC tuba, a more thoughtful band director would have withheld comment, called some folks, and asked questions. We get a few "tuba" questions phoned into the store, as well as "double reed" questions...and sometimes (rather than be ignorant "know-it-alls" ourselves) we admit that we don't know the answers to their questions any better than they know themselves, and defer to others.

I think we're on the same wavelength here. There are so many resources that one can consult to get the right answers to avoid conjecture (aka B.S.). One person can't know "everything", but has to be smart enough to keep learning.
Isn't it funny how ignorance and overconfidence in one's intelligence often come in the same package.

BTW - I like the idea of "TubaThanksgiving®". Sounds like a bunch of turkeys that play the tuba and then eat turkey.
Now all I need is for the tryptophan to kick in and lull me off the computer and onto the couch.

[Biggs]

tuba4sissies wrote:
Lew, yeah i thought about that. From what ive seen its just lower ntoes for the keyed tuba that use different fingerings.


What are you on about man!?

It could just be me but whenever you post they never seem to make any sense. Sorry if this seems harsh!

You may be "musically gifted" but I'd stick to asking questions for now.

Flame-on

Thank you, thank you, thank you for finally saying it!

[ai698]

Since I play in a community band, a National Guard band, a jazz ensemble, does that mean I have to sell my CC tubas and my F and get a BBb? I haven't played in an orchestra since 1989.

[Tubadork]

You can also tell your BD that ALL of the tuba players in ALL of the premiere Military bands use CC tubas and I only know of one Commander in the Army Band system who insists that the tubas play BBb tuba (Col. Palmetere {sp} He's in Heildleberg, Germany now and I've heard rumours that he may be going to TUSAB in DC. That will be a funny 1st rehersal when he tells them that they can't play CC).
Bill Pritchard
honking on CC in EUSA band

[JB]

simma down...