Severe intonation issues

[Tuba Guy]

I've had my Cerveny 701 Kaiser for over a month at this point. I love the sound that comes out (so big and full sounding), and so do the trombones, directors, and even oboe players.
I am having an incredible time with intonation on this horn, though. When the Bb in the staff (it's a BBb) is in tune, the F below is about 20-22 cents flat. The D below that is sharp (12 or 3). I asked the previous owner, who said that he did not experience the same problems, which led me to consider the mouthpiece choice I was using. In the past few days, I have been experimenting with every possible combination of mouthpiece and shank size that I could (Diablo Lite euro shank, Bach 7, Helleberg 7b, Curry 128D, PT48) with the shanks bare (in some cases, moving around a little in the leadpipe) and wrapped in blue painter's tape. The tape improved response and attack, but the big intonation problem (the low F partial) was still there.
I also experiemented with putting a rag in the bottom bow to try to even it out (cool effect, but did nothing for intonation). I tried putting a little piece of tape on the return bumpers to try to tweak (nonpermanently) the rotors, but that did not make a difference. It is not in tune in a different tuning system (tried A420-438). There are no leaks that I could notice, and when I looked through the open valve section, it looked like they were in proper alignment.
Now, with all of this said, I can get a decent F by using 4 and lipping up. Ideally though, I would like to find a way to eliminate this problem before it becomes too much of a hassle to play the horn.
Does anyone have any other ideas?
Thanks

[Bob Kolada]

Temporary-wise, have you tried 13 for that F?


Have you tried working with a drone? I much prefer drones over tuners, and really don't like tuners for anything other than the occasional-haven't-played-in-a-group-for-a-while tune up (that drones do a better job at anyways).

[Rick Denney]

I am having an incredible time with intonation on this horn, though. When the Bb in the staff (it's a BBb) is in tune, the F below is about 20-22 cents flat. ... Now, with all of this said, I can get a decent F by using 4 and lipping up. Ideally though, I would like to find a way to eliminate this problem before it becomes too much of a hassle to play the horn.

Play the F 1-3. That should be sharper than the open partial, and maybe even a bit too sharp, which will let you pull three a tad, which could help with the D.

A flat third partial is not unusual on big tubas. The above strategy is known to most Conn 2xJ players.

Rick "whose Holton is unusual in the that it's particular quirks do not include a flat third partial" Denney

[Tuba Guy]

I have read on here about people putting smaller leadpipes on Alex's and having that improve some intonation problems. The same thing with a 5th valve (adding more alternates). Could these work? Again, I love this horn, just not the problems it has

[WakinAZ]

So you've got this big, wonderful sounding horn, and you have an entire *two* notes that are giving you problems; some people on this board (who paid several multiples over the cost of a Cerveny) would absolutely kill to have that little intonation trouble with their horns. Granted, these notes are square in the middle of the "bread and butter" range, so alternate (adult) fingerings are in order.

As the others said, 1-3 or 4 for the F. If the D is that stinkin' bad, tune the third slide for that note and think low, dark, Russian thoughts. Hear it, play it. "Don't let the horn play you." Show that thing who's boss.

I've not found mouthpiece choice to significantly change pitch issues. Think about it, the mouthpiece represents a very minimal amount of your 18 foot bugle. Timbre, response differences? Sure, but not intonation.

Eric "who would like to have a Cerveny kaiser someday" L.

[imperialbari]

Two comments:

You clearly are in the post-honeymoon crisis with your relatively recently acquired tuba. I know that phenomenon from myself, and I always warned my students about it. Don’t panic. Don’t give up. Do what all serious players do to even intonation problems out: Plays scales in all keys and in all articulations.

Do you have the original mouthpiece? I do not like Cerveny mouthpieces for their far too narrow throats, but if that is what works, then go for it at least temporarily. The blokepiece to some degree shares the cup shape with Cerveny mouthpieces, but it has a very different throath concept, which for me is the real thing on my piston F and my rotary CC, but not on my piston BBb’s, where I prefer a Helleberg style (currently I use the Sidey Classic).

I am not out after spoiling the bloke/Hauser business, but the blokepiece isn’t cheap, and it is not a self-playing mouthpiece. In my opinion its wide cup opens up potentials for me, but it also demands a strong embouchure. Please be aware that the blokepiece really is a modular concept with two rim styles and two backbore variants with the cup and the throat being the constant factors. The choices are so personal, that I only will refer my own: flat/sharp-edge rim and narrow backbore.

Klaus

[Tuba Guy]

So you've got this big, wonderful sounding horn, and you have an entire *two* notes that are giving you problems; some people on this board (who paid several multiples over the cost of a Cerveny) would absolutely kill to have that little intonation trouble with their horns.

That's true. Just gunna work through the pain at the beginning...and always have a tuner on the stand

[termite]

Have you tried working with a drone? I much prefer drones over tuners, and really don't like tuners for anything other than the occasional-haven't-played-in-a-group-for-a-while tune up (that drones do a better job at anyways).

I second this.

Regards

Gerard

[MartyNeilan]

Bending notes a few cents usually works fine. This allows me to not have to pull slides very often on my F tuba. Bending notes more than a few cents changes the tone quality; anything over 20 cents and it sounds like a completely different instrument.

I would see the choices as :
A) Find an alternate fingering that you are comfortable with, and is close enough to pitch center to minimize or eliminate lipping. After anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks, that fingering will become second nature.
B) Install a tuning jigger on the main slide. I am surprised nobody has suggested this yet.
C) If A) and B) aren't feasible, follow Bloke's advice. I tried a horn a couple months ago I really wanted to like, but the pitch problems (far, far worse than your horn) were not something I could overcome. I would have either frustrated myself daily or played way out of tune. Neither is acceptable.

[Tom]

Before you start in on major tuba surgery, including replacing leadpipes, cutting slides, or adding valves, try the following:

Investigate alternate fingerings (it's free!):
-Try EVERYTHING...all combinations (even ones that shouldn't work) to see what the results are.

Invest in a well fitting mouthpiece:
-Order (or borrow) a kaiser shank mouthpiece to try with your tuba. Using ill fitting equipment can cause problems. Another option is to have an adaptor or sleeve made for the leadpipe so that you can use a "normal" mouthpiece. I really think this will help, as I have never had a mouthpiece really "fix" intonation issues provided I was using something reasonable and well fitting to start with.

Keep working with a tuner and/or drone to see if you can get your issues under control. Maybe a tuning rod or slide kicker would be ideal for you. If that doesn't work, as a last resort, consider physical alterations to the instrument in consultation with a trusted repairman. Personally I would check into cutting slides before I would swap leadpipes or add valves, but that's just me.

[Tuba Guy]

I did more experiementing this morning with a PT88+. It felt good to play, but the low Bb dropped about 10 cents, so it's not really ideal.
I am bringing the mouthpieces as close to correct size as I can by wrapping them with blue tape (not necissarily ideal, but it's cheap and works). I also started working with alternates...lo and behold, 13 works great for the F. D is a little high still on 3, but it's managable. Db is very nice as 23 (atm), but the Gb is now miles flat because the 3rd is out so far.
My brother suggested (and I will try this just to see if it makes some sort of difference) putting straws in slides (obviously so that they're easy to take out again) to see if any sort of messing with that can get it to right itself (and again, making sure it is easy and able to come out)
The one good thing about this problem is how much time I'm spending in the practice rooms. That part is probably good

[WakinAZ]

So if the third valve slide is the issue, is it reachable for pulling on the problem notes?

[imperialbari]

This will not earn me friends, but as I read the OP, he tries to solve problems by means of equipment on basis of too short a period of intensely hard work on scales and intervals.

If the OP is a long time pro level player, my evaluation of course is a smack-in-your-face offense. But then I don’t think a long time pro level player would ask this kind of questions on TN.

On the trombone intonation is not just a matter of learning 7 positions with each their few variants. It is a matter of knowing how to handle whatever number of tonal situations. It isn’t sufficient to know all 12 major scales of ones full range, but it is a decent starting point for asking relevant questions. And a reasonable starting point for calculating ones own equipment compromises.

The perfectly in tune tuba isn’t available as a piece of equipment. If you hear great intonation from a tuba, then you have heard a really good tubist.

Klaus

[Tuba Guy]

This will not earn me friends, but as I read the OP, he tries to solve problems by means of equipment on basis of too short a period of intensely hard work on scales and intervals.

If the OP is a long time pro level player, my evaluation of course is a smack-in-your-face offense. But then I don’t think a long time pro level player would ask this kind of questions on TN.

On the trombone intonation is not just a matter of learning 7 positions with each their few variants. It is a matter of knowing how to handle whatever number of tonal situations. It isn’t sufficient to know all 12 major scales of ones full range, but it is a decent starting point for asking relevant questions. And a reasonable starting point for calculating ones own equipment compromises.

The perfectly in tune tuba isn’t available as a piece of equipment. If you hear great intonation from a tuba, then you have heard a really good tubist.

Klaus

I think I realized that tonight at my brass ensemble rehearsal when I was actually comfortably in tune with the other guy. And I had barely done an hour of practicing. A lot of trouble on the attacks still, but it's going to get a lot better.

[Wyvern]

I am really surprised 'Tuba Guy' is having such intonation problems as I did not when I played this tuba. In fact I was always impressed with the Kaiser's good intonation.

I now wonder if I lipping into tune without even realising I was doing so? It is strange how tubas can respond differently for different players

[imperialbari]

I am really surprised 'Tuba Guy' is having such intonation problems as I did not when I played this tuba. In fact I was always impressed with the Kaiser's good intonation.

I now wonder if I lipping into tune without even realising I was doing so? It is strange how tubas can respond differently for different players

The pitch equation comes out differently with different sorts of air support. Most makers (ideally it should be all) strive to tune their pro level instruments for a pro level air support. From there experienced players used to the more common intonation quirks will handle pitch as part of their pro approach to playing.

Players not encompassing very large instruments in their bag of experiences do not necessarily handle their air support right. For the safety of their minds they tend to turn their lack of experience into perceived problems with their equipment. Such players may pull slides and change mouthpieces infinitely. They are doomed to be discontent with their equipment until they start blowing their instruments the right way.

Klaus

[Tuba Guy]

I am really surprised 'Tuba Guy' is having such intonation problems as I did not when I played this tuba. In fact I was always impressed with the Kaiser's good intonation.

I now wonder if I lipping into tune without even realising I was doing so? It is strange how tubas can respond differently for different players

The pitch equation comes out differently with different sorts of air support. Most makers (ideally it should be all) strive to tune their pro level instruments for a pro level air support. From there experienced players used to the more common intonation quirks will handle pitch as part of their pro approach to playing.

Players not encompassing very large instruments in their bag of experiences do not necessarily handle their air support right. For the safety of their minds they tend to turn their lack of experience into perceived problems with their equipment. Such players may pull slides and change mouthpieces infinitely. They are doomed to be discontent with their equipment until they start blowing their instruments the right way.

Klaus

On this note, I think I must disagree. My private teacher noticed something "funky" on the intonation when he tried the horn, and he is the living embodiment of good air support. I'd like to think that mine isn't bad either, though I'm also not completely used to the kaiser yet. I am asking a few other tuba players here (a few who have great intonation usually) to just give my horn a try on the open bugle and see how many of the intonation problems are me and how much could be the horn (getting rid of as many variables)

[Rick Denney]

...Players not encompassing very large instruments in their bag of experiences do not necessarily handle their air support right. For the safety of their minds they tend to turn their lack of experience into perceived problems with their equipment. Such players may pull slides and change mouthpieces infinitely. They are doomed to be discontent with their equipment until they start blowing their instruments the right way.

On this note, I think I must disagree. My private teacher noticed something "funky" on the intonation when he tried the horn, and he is the living embodiment of good air support. I'd like to think that mine isn't bad either, though I'm also not completely used to the kaiser yet. I am asking a few other tuba players here (a few who have great intonation usually) to just give my horn a try on the open bugle and see how many of the intonation problems are me and how much could be the horn (getting rid of as many variables)

Don't misunderstand Klaus. He is not saying that all intonation problems are the result of improper air support or that instruments all have good intonation. He is saying that improper air support is the cause of many intonation problems. That's a different statement altogether. What it means to we mortals is that until we are providing proper air support, we can't really evaluate an instrument's intonation, and this is more true with instruments that have flexible intonation and with instruments more demanding of proper air support. Big tubas have both issues.

Having others play the instrument is one approach, but let them tell you what they think and don't base it on what you hear of their playing. A pro will make it sound good (and in tune) no matter what, but the question is how much work did it take for them to achieve that result. The flip side of that is that if you can't play a workable instrument in tune with any amount of work, then blaming the instrument is likely to be a mistake. The question is not whether the instrument can be played in tune, but whether the work required to do so is unacceptably excessive. The flexible pitch of big tubas is often their great blessing--if they have intonation quirks (and they all do), then the flexible pitch may make the instrument playable. But it requires a good pitch inside your head and in your ears. People accustomed to smaller, more forgiving tubas have a process they have to go through.

Rick "whose Holton taught him a lot about moving air" Denney

[Wyvern]

Having others play the instrument is one approach, but let them tell you what they think and don't base it on what you hear of their playing. A pro will make it sound good (and in tune) no matter what, but the question is how much work did it take for them to achieve that result.

I will mention that a top US orchestral pro did play this tuba before I shipped and commented on how good this Kaiser is. I don't think he would have said that if he had not meant it.

Klaus could be onto something, as that monster does take a LOT of air. I considered playing it a real work-out and that was against a Neptune - hardly a small tuba.

So, 'Tuba Guy' I say 'stick at it' and don't be too quick to reach conclusions. Good luck!

[jeopardymaster]

I am familiar with an earlier version of this model, one I acquired from Walter Sear back in the '70's. Picked it out of a FLOCK of them at his studio in NYC. And boy do I ever regret I sold it. As I recall, I had no significant intonation trouble using a 24AW (slightly flat but easily adjustable 5th partial), but a host of other MPs - Rose Orchestra, Sear Helleberg, Conn Helleberg, Bach 18, Bach 7, and Herrick (wide and shallow, tiny throat, Rex Conner's personal favorite) among them - gave me much less favorable results.

This is not to suggest that particular mouthpiece for you - though it did do the trick for me. I'm just saying, if there's a code to crack here, I hope you can crack it and finding the right mouthpiece may be the way to go. The horn LOOKS really fine and its previous owner had the mojo with it, so I'd say your chances are pretty good. Patient experimentation may pay off for you.