BBb vs. CC Tubas

[jonesbrass]

And do it in gold plate of course--gotta have da bling!

JJ

Gold AND silver.

And of course four pistons(right hand), three rotors(left hand).

But...would it be American or German?

It should be made of the best tuba parts from around the globe, but have "that classic American sound."
. . . seeing visions of the family truckster . . . or Johnny Cash's Cadillac . . .

[bort]

I started playing CC tuba in college...I was not a music major, and didn't own a tuba. The first school-owned tuba they had for me to use was a B&S PT3 CC. I floundered for a week or so, and then went on with life. In part, I was excited to learn something new. And also, excited to legitimize myself a bit as a non-major by being flexible and learning "on the job." But most of all, I was excited to be a broke student playing on a nice tuba instead of the TSO-quality (tuba shaped object) Yamaha I played in HS.

It was fun, and not so bad. Hell, we had 5 hours of rehearsal every week, so I had to pick it up quickly!

[sloan]

I have begun college and have been informed that I will be required to learn CC tuba. (currently on a BBb) Every time I asked, I never got an answer to justify this transition. So here it is- What's the difference between a BBb tuba and CC tuba in the 'real world'?

I fear you miss the point.

You are not being told to FORGET BBb - you are being told to LEARN CC.

You do know that the point of college is to *learn* don't you?

Soon, you may be asked to learn F. You may at some point be motivated to learn Eb.

Tell your sad story to a Horn player. Be prepared for astonished disbelief, followed by raucous laughter.

[Bob Kolada]

I have begun college and have been informed that I will be required to learn CC tuba. (currently on a BBb) Every time I asked, I never got an answer to justify this transition. So here it is- What's the difference between a BBb tuba and CC tuba in the 'real world'?

I fear you miss the point.
You are not being told to FORGET BBb - you are being told to LEARN CC.
You do know that the point of college is to *learn* don't you?
Soon, you may be asked to learn F. You may at some point be motivated to learn Eb.
Tell your sad story to a Horn player. Be prepared for astonished disbelief, followed by raucous laughter.

However noble that may be, I think the goal of most people who learn C tuba in college (and their teachers) is to never play a Bb instrument again*. 3 possible exceptions (crap, another Bob mini-list!!! )-
-want to be a "diverse musician"- play bass trombone, probably badly , in jazz band
-want to teach lessons- euphonium, and then only play it rarely and never focus on it seriously
-sousa (almost certainly a Bb)- "sigh... one of those things that you just have to endure" :raisedeyebrow:


*Which is probably why so many people sound so bad on F or Eb tuba- they never plan to learn anything seriously after the enlightening C tuba thing.

[Chadtuba]

I have begun college and have been informed that I will be required to learn CC tuba. (currently on a BBb) Every time I asked, I never got an answer to justify this transition. So here it is- What's the difference between a BBb tuba and CC tuba in the 'real world'?

I fear you miss the point.

You are not being told to FORGET BBb - you are being told to LEARN CC.

You do know that the point of college is to *learn* don't you?

Soon, you may be asked to learn F. You may at some point be motivated to learn Eb.

Tell your sad story to a Horn player. Be prepared for astonished disbelief, followed by raucous laughter.

Why the attack on this young woman? All she did was come here to ask a question that her instructor is unwilling to listen to and answer and you come on here and publicly berate her for it. And I can speak on this subject with first hand knowledge as I was her previous teacher before she started college this fall. This is a hard working, dedicated student who works hard in her academics and her studies to *learn". She is also taking a 2nd band this semester and playing euphonium and asking me about more lessons on bass trombone so that she can become a more rounded player to help her future students. She and I are still in the same area and I continue to give her advice when sought out, not that I would be considered a "professional" by some as I only play BBb & Eb.

She never stated that she was opposed to learning the different keyed tubas and in fact started learning Eb in our last couple of lessons together before the academic year started. Where in the tuba world does it say that you can only play on a CC tuba and be taken seriuosly? I agree that we should all look at the different horns but why choose one over the other simply because somebody else says that's the only way to play? This young woman would like to better her skills in general on the horn that she is comfortable playing on and then move into the different keyed horns, is that really so wrong.

It is this elitist attitude that has run off some very talented musicians over the years because they didn't have access to the "right" keyed horn. Someday I would like to learn CC but certainly not because it is the horn I have to have, but rather because I would like to further my knowledge in the tuba world. Personally I am very happy with my Eb and will most likely never own a CC. I'm ok with that even if you are not.

[sloan]

I have begun college and have been informed that I will be required to learn CC tuba. (currently on a BBb) Every time I asked, I never got an answer to justify this transition. So here it is- What's the difference between a BBb tuba and CC tuba in the 'real world'?

I fear you miss the point.
You are not being told to FORGET BBb - you are being told to LEARN CC.
You do know that the point of college is to *learn* don't you?
Soon, you may be asked to learn F. You may at some point be motivated to learn Eb.
Tell your sad story to a Horn player. Be prepared for astonished disbelief, followed by raucous laughter.

However noble that may be, I think the goal of most people who learn C tuba in college (and their teachers) is to never play a Bb instrument again*.

Such people are not serious people, and do not deserve our attention.

*Which is probably why so many people sound so bad on F or Eb tuba- they never plan to learn anything seriously after the enlightening C tuba thing.

You make my point.

College is a sifting process (one of many). Some people sift down, others sift up. Teachers, too.

[TUBAD83]

...and no, the purpose of college is not "to learn". Rather, it is to have an excuse to have a STATE LOTTERY !!!!! and thereby creating an excuse to tax the naïf appauvri and the gambling-addicted.

bloke--totally agree with you--the lottery simply takes advantage of the naive and poor, and suckers looking for the easy way to "get paid". In TX, we were all fed the line "proceeds from the lottery will to be used for education"...well of course that never happened. It should be declared illegal and repealed---but that will NEVER happen--way too much money coming in.

JJ

[Ice]

My problem is not that I don't want to learn C Tuba... My problem is that I am being forced into learning a key... When I first posted this question I was simply wondering if there was a notable difference between Bb and C Tubas that would make a difference... Seeing as how my instructor won't answer this question...

I understand that in college I will be asked to "LEARN"...But before I LEARN CC Tuba I want to LEARN BBb Tuba so that I can at least play one key... I don't like starting things to not finish them... sorry I started this....

[imperialbari]

My problem is not that I don't want to learn C Tuba... My problem is that I am being forced into learning a key... When I first posted this question I was simply wondering if there was a notable difference between Bb and C Tubas that would make a difference... Seeing as how my instructor won't answer this question...

I understand that in college I will be asked to "LEARN"...But before I LEARN CC Tuba I want to LEARN BBb Tuba so that I can at least play one key... I don't like starting things to not finish them... sorry I started this....

There are at least two concepts about learning the various pitches of tuba. Some see each pitch as a learning project, which has to be completed before the next pitch is approached. This concept often is followed by the idea that the black dots indicate which valves to press.

Others read music as sequences of intervals and other musical occurrences happening to be placed somewhere on a staff, which has one clef or another to the left followed by an indication of a key. With this concept you have to know all your intervals and scales on your instrument of whatever pitch. The revelation for people having moved around between various brasses is, that they basically are all the same. There may be differences in numbers of valves and in lengths of valve slides, but these details may be handled with ease, if one is at home in our diatonic notation system.

Going from one pitch to another doesn’t imply starting over from scratch. Rather it is a continued development. Some say drop your BBb, when learning CC. I do not agree. My method when teaching similar problems in other instruments is about keeping the original reading going in extensive ensemble work, while the new learning happens in private lessons and in the practicing for these.

Currently I don’t play from music, as I cannot read music off paper due age related eye problems. But I still can imagine music notation, and I know how I would handle diverse situations. I had the good fortune to have some rudimentary piano lessons as a kid, and I was forced to learn to transpose as a youngster. The alternative would have been rewriting lots of parts. But even I have permutations of instrument pitches and notation practices, which make me feel much more comfortable than others. In bass clef concert I will take a euphonium, a trombone, or an Eb tuba, if that will do the job. With my BBb basses I prefer British brass band notation, as the bass clef gives far too many ledger lines to the BBb. Or give me a string bass part and I will read it octave down.

Even bloke, who is a way better player than me, admits being more comfortable reading orchestral music, when playing an F bass rather than an Eb. And that man has performed endless numbers of jazz concerts on sousaphones and helicons in Eb with whatever number of valves.

BBb and CC tubas are not alternatives to exclude each other. If your starting point is the music, you just learn to handle the one you happen to play in any given situation.

Klaus

[eupher61]

re: taking the OP seriously, not berating her, etc

It must be realized that this is undoubtedly the most discussed topic on this board. It's to the point where any question like this is presumed to be of troll origin. A search for "BBb CC" or any variant of it would yield enough material to stock many a dorm floor restroom.

The consensus has never been solid. Some truly do feel CC is the "only" big tuba key worth anything, while many, if not most, think that's horse hockey.

I"ve stated my view earlier in the thread---it's important to know ALL keys of tuba cold, at least in the college years. After that one can do whatever s/he wants. Unfortunately, I'm not teaching in a college setting, or I would be able to enforce that belief in my own little world. My students would, ideally, be learning on CC and BBb simultaneously, and once they're reasonably solid Eb and F would be introduced.

To FORCE a switch to CC is silly, IMO. I agree to a large degree that it's important to learn to play the doggone tuba. As more information comes out, though, it sounds as if this OP may have a good head start. Were I teaching her, I'd suggest she take a CC home next summer, possibly over the holiday break. A few weeks is all it takes, and here's the most important part:

Anything that can be learned on BBb can be learned equally well on CC. For the word 'learned', substitute 'played'. F and Eb are different animals from that perspective, but I'd be interested to have a student who played only Eb from the start, and have that student take up contrabass too. The reversed process should be worth another 17,000 pages here.

[Wyvern]

I'd be interested to have a student who played only Eb from the start, and have that student take up contrabass too.

Of course that is exactly what happens here in the UK. It seems far more sensible to start students on Eb. A small tuba will be easier for them to handle, they grow confidence better in the higher register and learn to coax the low register. Then if they learn a contrabass tuba in CC, or BBb (although many never do), they will find the low register easy.

[jonesbrass]

My problem is not that I don't want to learn C Tuba... My problem is that I am being forced into learning a key... When I first posted this question I was simply wondering if there was a notable difference between Bb and C Tubas that would make a difference... Seeing as how my instructor won't answer this question...

I understand that in college I will be asked to "LEARN"...But before I LEARN CC Tuba I want to LEARN BBb Tuba so that I can at least play one key... I don't like starting things to not finish them... sorry I started this....

Don't apologize.
I may be alone in this, but I like the way you've looked at this. When I bought my first horn in college, I bought a BBb. Everyone wondered why I didn't buy a CC, but I felt I wanted to truly have the BBb under my belt. After my first two years in the army bands, I bought a CC. This was after learning to play the F tuba. For me, I don't regret staying on BBb for so long. Not for one second. It made learning F, CC and Eb much easier and quicker.
The issue you might have is that your instructor wants you to start playing CC. You can either start playing CC or try to convince him/her to allow you to stay on BBb for a while . . . but you'll have to provide some good logic to do so, I'd imagine. Good luck!

[Chadtuba]

Now for some good old thread hijacking ! Your instructor Chad has a CC tuba he probably forgot I gave him !
It has no valves and is made of plastic,but for over a year I've bin waiting for him to post about it's resurrection.
Maybe he just needs you to remind him to build it! I would love to see it.

I promise Brian that I haven't forgotten your generosity. I've been on the look out for a valve set but everytime I've found one something in life takes a slight turn that takes away that extra play money and the project gets put on the back burner again I do very much want to complete this project and will hopefully be doing so now that I am gainfully employed again and not scraping by on GTA salary

I'll be in touch as soon as I get a valve set

[Dan Schultz]

..... To FORCE a switch to CC is silly, IMO. ....... Anything that can be learned on BBb can be learned equally well on CC. For the word 'learned', substitute 'played'. F and Eb are different animals from that perspective, but I'd be interested to have a student who played only Eb from the start, and have that student take up contrabass too. The reversed process should be worth another 17,000 pages here.

This is perhaps the most informative perspective on the last four pages. I DID start out on Eb tuba... back in 1959 (I think) when the prudent thing for a beginning school band teacher to do when he or she needed a tuba player was to pluck the trumpet from the student's hands and hand them an Eb tuba. The transition was an easy one to make but taught little in terms of why the charts looked the same. Since that time... I've played Eb, F, CC, and BBb. IMHO, other than the obvious range of the different keys, there is absolutely no difference in the construction of these tubas other than the tube lengths. There are those who would argue that more care is taken in the production of CC tubas because that market is more 'professional'. Heck... I've worked on these so-called professional horns and can tell you that the same sloppiness exists. As for the higher cost of a C tuba???... that's only because fewer of them are produced.

I suppose my biggest question might be... how come here in the US does everyone make such a big deal about CC tubas. ... ESPECIALLY since it involves learning different fingerings. After all... the fingerings are EXACTLY the same... just with the fundamental pitch moved up from BBb to whatever key the tuba is made in. In other parts of The World this is not a big deal at all since much of the International music is written in treble clef.

Funny... a Japanese group just visited our city last week. They specifically requested a BBb rotary tuba. BBb seems to be the popular choice in many European orchestras. Eb and BBb tubas are used in British brass bands.

I just don't get the hullabaloo about CC tubas being so great. I DO understand the idea of learning new things, though. I am an engineer and a my wife is a pharmacist. I had to learn how to construction various geometric forms back in the 60's using only a compass and a scale. I also was not allowed to use a calculator for my first two years in college. She had to learn some things in pharmacy school that she has NEVER used to this day.

Teach anything you feel is necessary to drive home the fundamentals of music but the idea of CC tubas being better for anything is a bunch of hogwash. A kazoo blends just a well with strings as a CC tuba!

[TUBAD83]

I suppose my biggest question might be... how come here in the US does everyone make such a big deal about CC tubas. ... ESPECIALLY since it involves learning different fingerings. After all... the fingerings are EXACTLY the same... just with the fundamental pitch moved up from BBb to whatever key the tuba is made in. In other parts of The World this is not a big deal at all since much of the International music is written in treble clef.

I just don't get the hullabaloo about CC tubas being so great. I DO understand the idea of learning new things, though. I am an engineer and a my wife is a pharmacist. I had to learn how to construction various geometric forms back in the 60's using only a compass and a scale. I also was not allowed to use a calculator for my first two years in college. She had to learn some things in pharmacy school that she has NEVER used to this day.

Teach anything you feel is necessary to drive home the fundamentals of music but the idea of CC tubas being better for anything is a bunch of hogwash. A kazoo blends just a well with strings as a CC tuba!

Dan, I would humbly submit the following: The American top level professional "Tuba Gods" had deemed the CC tuba "the way, the truth, and the light"---ALL tubists who hope to be accepted as serious musicians shall play the infinitely superior CC tuba and not the lowly amateurish inferior BBb. Of course there have volumes of articles to justify this school of thought (even though the rest of the planet does NOT buy into it at all) and many teachers still preach this today. As for the big deal of learning different fingerings, its more about perception and less about the actual process. Just like you said, you're just moving the fingerings up 1 step--people tend to make it harder than it really is. In time I hope this issue about one horn being superior to another goes away...but I know it will not happen anytime soon.

JJ

[Dan Schultz]

.... In time I hope this issue about one horn being superior to another goes away...but I know it will not happen anytime soon. JJ

Yup. That says it all.

[Chadtuba]

So if the general consensus of those that are smarter than I (being very serious & not sarcastic) is for everyone to play the CC tuba then why do we continue to start them out on BBb tubas rather than CC? To me that makes absolutely no sense. I learned on BBb, never learned CC and I have done just fine for myself over the last 20 or so years as a tubist (or at least I would like to think so).

[Wyvern]

The American top level professional "Tuba Gods" had deemed the CC tuba "the way, the truth, and the light"

I think it interesting that a top professional in Gene Pokorny, Principal tubist of the Chicago Symphony despite having use of the legendary York's seems to be increasingly playing BBb - such as a MW 195/5P Fafner for Mahler 9 in concert at Ravinia I attended July. I also know of another top orchestra pro who seems to favor BBb. I wonder if professional attitudes in the US are becoming more favorable towards BBb thanks to the availability of good professional instruments such as the Fafner???

[Mike Finn]

So if the general consensus of those that are smarter than I (being very serious & not sarcastic) is for everyone to play the CC tuba then why do we continue to start them out on BBb tubas rather than CC? To me that makes absolutely no sense. I learned on BBb, never learned CC and I have done just fine for myself over the last 20 or so years as a tubist (or at least I would like to think so).

You're question, in my opinion, hints at a possible reason for encouraging aspiring musicians to "switch to" (read "add") CC tuba:

Because several prominent U.S. Orchestral tubists and their students (who are now pros and profs themselves) chose/choose to play CC tuba, there has been quite a bit of R&D by the major manufacturers in recent decades focussed almost exclusively on CC tubas. BBb is more often relegated to "student line" instruments (we're talking current production models here, of course there are exceptions) and the bulk of "professional" tubas being designed and produced have been pitched in CC. Now, what is a "professional" tuba? For the purposes of this thread, I'd say the fit and finish as well as tone quality and intonation will be generaly superior to "student" instruments. Of course we all know plenty of pro players who play all keys (and brands) of horns, (I'm back to BBb these days) but the general consensus in the U.S. (held by tuba factories and tuba player factories alike) is that BBb horns are more frequently student models and CC tubas are "professional" models.
Do not misconstrue this as a blanket statement that all CC's are better than all BBb's. Simply that of all the BBb tubas currently in production, the majority of them are aimed at the "student market" and certailnly the VAST majority of CC tubas are aimed at pros and aspiring pros.
so... a teacher who recommends that their student purchase a CC over a BBb may be simply "playing the odds" that they'll end up with a decent horn. Lots of other reasons too, real and perceived, but the marketing aspect (at least to me) is hard to discount.
now, to the OP, did your teacher refuse to answer your question, or he simply hasn't give you a satisfactory answer?

[Mike Finn]

I wonder if professional attitudes in the US are becoming more favorable towards BBb thanks to the availability of good professional instruments such as the Fafner???

I sure hope so!