BBb vs. CC Tubas

[itai]

I've been learning Bb for 6 years, and I just purchased my first horn, a C. Now that I think about it, it was just because everyone (well..except for one of my teachers, he's russian) told me to play a C horn. My guess is that it's just a new trend.. I know for sure that Bb tubas can play as well as C. A question that will never be solved.

[sailn2ba]

I personally agonized over this issue for 1 1/2 years before purchasing my present BBb. I think that the important thing is, at some level in music ed, to teach pitch and intervals rather than notes on a staff and buttons to push. That's a tough transition under the pressure of running a lower school program, but it would make the length of a tuba moot.

[Ice]

now, to the OP, did your teacher refuse to answer your question, or he simply hasn't give you a satisfactory answer?

My instructor's response was "That's what real tuba players play" and also the fact that you play less on your third valve if your on a CC tuba. However, I watched a section mate playing in band, he used his third valve more than I do in any of my playing. And the idea that you have to play CC tuba to be a real player, I laugh at.

Currently, I'm not the best on the BBb tuba I am on, and I don't like stopping half way to learn something new...

[imperialbari]

My instructor's response was "That's what real tuba players play" and also the fact that you play less on your third valve if your on a CC tuba. However, I watched a section mate playing in band, he used his third valve more than I do in any of my playing. And the idea that you have to play CC tuba to be a real player, I laugh at.

Your observation is correct, as CC players will need their 3rd valve for Eb and Ab.

If I were on a CC with a 1st slide short enough to play the D in the middle of the staff in tune, then I would use the 3rd valve for all A’s and E’s rather than pull the 1st slide. Not a theoretical consideration, as I use the 3rd valve very much also on my non-CC instruments.

Klaus

[sailn2ba]

Wow! Good response. . . but you missed the quote . . . oops, I guess you got it! Good job!

[oedipoes]

I dunno but after reading though this (and every other Bb vs C thread) im glad that at this present point, my community college director doesnt care either way.

Our college is armed with a couple 641s and 186s, the only question my director really had was why i chose pistons over rotaries. Because of my experience, i never even thought of buying a C. Also because I plan on going into music education around the high school level, i thought it was natural to get a Bb.

Maybe once i get to the university level I will learn C, but it wouldnt be right if i was forced to, noone should be FORCED to. I mean I had to learn treble clef Bb for the local British brass band, and that was an experience. I still dont completely have it, and it worried me a bit just because ive only been playing tuba (and music in general) for about 2 years, didnt think it was the best thing to mix the 2 styles, although i have had bass clef Bb down for a while. Luckily I mix bass clef fingerings with treble clef fingerings, and not the other way around.

I learned to read treble clef for Bb trumpet and bariton. I added transposed bass clef reading on euphonium and BBb tuba. (brassband style)
Now I'm learning to read the orchestra-tuba reading, (written unnaturally low in my opinion) which appears to be standard in most of the world. Like that I can start to make my way though the classic tuba repertoire and study books, without having to re-write all the music.
Just a matter of practice.
For the rest, the low note that I play on my BBb without any buttons pushed, I call it a "do". You guys would call it a "Bb".
It really doesn't matter, as long as the same sound comes out of the horn if we would ever play together from the same sheet music.

Wim

[dentaltuba]

there's always more than one wayto skin a cat. I have just started to play again after years of foolishness. I DID NOT KNOW about cc vs bb until i started surfing tuba websites.Only played in high school on a sousaphone in small town. Just want to play again for enjoyment so I guess I'll go with a bb horn. I do enjoy everyones comments and suggestions and if was to pursue a professional career it would be important but to me it's mute! Sorry for my ignorance. Just happy to be in the back row again! jds

[Ice]

Things I know:

I'm sure your tuba professor has never heard of, nor anonymously browsed, TubeNet...

I'm sure at 18, you know everything about life you'll ever need to know...

I'm sure your tuba professor will not recognize your avatar picture nor your question's subject, tone, or demeanor...

I'm sure your tuba professor feels they need to justify their every instruction to every new fresh "person" that starts in their studio...

I'm sure that your tuba professor feels every one of his new, bright, shiny, tuba players are advanced in years, experience, maturity, and skill to process every bit of the knowledge he or she has collected over their many years of experience in playing and teaching the tuba...

and lastly, I'm sure you're not shooting yourself in the foot by posting this childish protest here and doubting your new tuba professor's credibility publicly because college professors are just like your parents and will understand...

Things I don't know:

I'm sure that the things I don't know could fill volumes and the number of those volumes grow everyday...

-I'm sure if my tuba professor did browse Tubenet, we will be having a conversation in my lesson tomorrow, if not sooner.

-At 18 I think I'm smart enough to ask for other peoples' opinions so that I can make an informed decision on something that will affect me for years to come.

-I know that my tuba professor would recognize my avatar picture and as I stated above, I'm sure we will be holding a conversation in my lesson.

-I'm sure that my tuba professor would rather a student goes into a new thing willingly rather than against their will and with no energy.

-I did not mean for this to be a “childish protest” I asked a question to which I was wondering the answer…

As for the things that I don't know, I'm positive that I know much less than most of the members here on TubeNet. This is the reason why I came here to ask my question. I'm extremely sorry for thinking that people that know more than I do, would be interested in sharing their knowledge, next time I have a question I'll keep it to myself and stay my ignorant little self...

[pierso20]

As for the things that I don't know, I'm positive that I know much less than most of the members here on TubeNet. This is the reason why I came here to ask my question. I'm extremely sorry for thinking that people that know more than I do, would be interested in sharing their knowledge, next time I have a question I'll keep it to myself and stay my ignorant little self...

Again, you are showing signs of being young.

This is the internet, and all it takes is a minute to get signed on to tubenet. Just because someone browses here and posts does NOT mean that they know what they are talking about. Granted, there are MANY wonderful musicians who browse this site (INCLUDING many WELL WELL known professionals). However, there are many people who take part in this site who may not know much. Further, you don't have to know anything to give your opinion. It happens all the time. If you really wanted to know, you ask your teacher, other teachers, and if there is someone on TubeNet that you seem to value their opinion, send them a private message for advice. Ask a hotly debated question, and you will get a hot debate. But remember this: TubeNet is made up of REAL people. It took me a long time to truly understand this. But when I say that PROFESSIONAL musicians browse this site, I ABSOLUTELY mean it. These are not fake people and things you say or write on a PUBLIC forum can and WILL come back to bite you if you are not careful. Believe me, credibility can be a big ally and the way you paint yourself has a hand in how others will perceive you.

(not to mention your last statement "next time I have a question I'll keep it to myself and stay my ignorant little self..." is very similar to a child saying "I hate you" to a parent to get what they want or prove their point).

If you take ANYTHING from this: TubeNet is a real place with REAL people.

[Rick Denney]

Sigh.

More misunderstanding than understanding in this thread.

Sloan's message didn't get through, but it should have. Young Ice, you will never fully master the Bb tuba. Repeat: You will never fully master the Bb tuba. As Greg Lemond once said of world-class bike racing: It doesn't hurt any less, you just go faster. As you make progress on Bb, your standards will keep pace. You will ALWAYS having something you wish to improve. If you even think you have fully learned one instrument, I fear that you will not make it as a professional musician.

Do not think about "the end". Think about "the journey".

Thus, it does not undermine your journey with the Bb tuba to also begin a journey with a C tuba. Since each journey has no end, you are not truncating anything. Before you get out of college, you'll start your journey on all four pitches of tuba. Some you will prefer for some applications, and others for other applications. That's why the four options exist in the first place.

But deciding which tuba fits which application best is a personal decision that you must earn the right to make for yourself, if you intend to be a professional musician. Part of making it as a pro is earning that right, and those who don't intend to become pros should just play the instruments they enjoy playing (since enjoyment is their only standard) and not worry further about it.

I don't know your professor, and maybe he's just got a CC bias and doesn't care what you think or why it's true. On the other hand, maybe he's making a Different Point. Good teachers often answer the real question, rather than the question being asked. The question you asked was, "why is C better than Bb?" Maybe he doesn't know or care. But just maybe he's answering a different question, one he thinks you are really asking, "why do I have to learn C?" Maybe that's an incorrect interpretation of you, but maybe not. You have to work that out with him, and doing so may require proving something with your playing.

And the answer to "why do I have to learn C" is simply: Those who have a shot at making it as a professional tuba player don't need to ask this question. They just do it. When Roger Bobo thought a G tuba (or was it a D tuba?) might be more appropriate for a particular piece of music, he had one made and used it. He learned the fingerings for a one-off tuba in a weird key on the mere speculation that it might offer something musically that he didn't get with his other instruments. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?

Now, to various technical trivia. And it is is trivia. If F tubas are generally more responsive to player input than Bb tubas (and my several-of-each collection strongly indicates such), then it stands to reason that a C tuba covers part of the ground from Bb to F in terms of responsiveness. I suspect one can tell the difference by hearing between big contrabass tubas and little bass tubas, and possibly between big and little examples of each, but probably not between tubas of the same general size and shape, no matter what their pitch, when played by the same good player. All tubas are chromatic instruments, and while each has its own quirks, they are all intended to be able to play all keys of music in tune. Many of the traditional arguments in favor of C tuba either 1.) applied to specific examples and not to the pitch as a class, or 2.) were ex post facto justifications.

But none of that matters, and none of that will enhance your relationship to your teacher. Right now, you have the chance to expand your horizons when you the time to devote to it. Don't miss that opportunity. You will always regret doing so.

Rick "welcome to college" Denney

[Ice]

Thanks for the things to think about Denney...

[sloan]

Thanks for the things to think about Denney...

You are welcome.

[cambrook]

You guys have got it ALL wrong!

BBb tubas are for playing in keys with lots of flats in the key signature, and CC tubas are all rounders.

There's more music with flat keys than sharp keys, which is why there aren't many DD tubas around.

[sailn2ba]

Hey, could I get a nice CC and have it cut to DD?

[pierso20]

Hey, could I get a nice CC and have it cut to DD?

you COULD. But then again, I could also plant some corn in my living room.

[Bob Kolada]

Hey, could I get a nice CC and have it cut to DD?

you COULD. But then again, I could also plant some corn in my living room.

That would look pretty cool in your log cabin! :razz:x2

[Tuba Guy]

I was actually thinking today of putting my low pitch BBb into AA. But then I realized that if I push the slide all the way in, it can pass for 440...

[Bob Kolada]

I was actually thinking today of putting my low pitch BBb into AA. But then I realized that if I push the slide all the way in, it can pass for 440...

Alright!!!

[Tuba Guy]

I do want to put it in A and learn it that way just for the hell of it, though. The better I get at reading different keyed horns and different clefs, the better I will get at just about any horn I play.
I hope

[Wyvern]

The better I get at reading different keyed horns and different clefs

As someone who has played tubas in all four keys, I think that is the best reason for learning another pitch.

From a musical point of view, the audience (unless tuba players) does not know, or care if you are playing a BBb or CC. Any differences in tone may be less than differences between different models of the same pitch. If your motivation and future expectation of tuba playing is purely for pleasure (amateur), then I cannot see why not just play what pitch tuba you prefer, but if you have hopes of becoming a professional, then playing all pitches of tuba should be part of your musical training. Like many other things learnt in school, you may not actually use in 'real life', but doing so will make you better educated and in this case a better musician.