Schillaphone 186

[bisontuba]

HI-
I just received one of these tubas from Jim Laabs--I figured for the price, and with all these positive comments, I'd give it a shot, and move it if it wasn't good. It was sent via truck because FedEx and UPS have destroyed 2 Schiller horns. I even went over to the truck lines to pick up--examined the horn before leaving--all was fine. Just finished putting it through a 'test drive'--and WOW--this is the best deal going --period! The horn plays great--Very, very even response, pitch right on, slots easily, high/low ranges free and open--I really wanted to find some fault with this horn, but can't! ( NOTE: The ad says the leadpipe on this horn is red brass-it is yellow brass-mistake in ad, but no big deal.) The mouthpiece looks like a no name copy of a Bach 25-useless to me, but for the cat to play with. The wheeling hard case is great, the folks in Wisconsin were very easy to deal with--all in all, the best deal going. Is it as good as a vintage 186 from the 1960's--well, I like the 4 valve 1960's horns, and this is a 5 valve, so hard to say--but I like this horn even better than new 186 Miraphones--I can't believe this instrument. It is a thicker/heavier type of brass than a 186, & compression of rotors is excellent and horn has a wonderful sound. Highly, highly recommended--not just because under $2k--it would be a great deal at twice the money-don't laugh,I am serious!! I am very pleasantly shocked, and would not hesitate to recommend this to anyone looking for a horn. This is a keeper in the collection--absolutely amazing. With the piston CC's/BBb coming from Gemstone/W. Nirschl from Brazil in a few months, I would be very, very concerned selling BB's and CC's if I were a European/Czech/Japanese maker--this Schiller 5v CC is just the beginning of killing the German market for BB's and CC's. I have heard too of a 6/4 CC being worked on in China--should be interesting. Hope Eb and F's follow--if they are anywhere as good as this Schiller 5v CC and have a similar price, European makers are D.O.A. My 2 cents.
Regards-
mark jones
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank
Buffalo, NY

[bigbob]

What is the bore size on that horn? and how much work did you have to do before it was right for you??...bigbob http://www.rgisculptures.com" target="_blank

[MartyNeilan]

I have heard too of a 6/4 CC being worked on in China--should be interesting.

Played my first paying gig with it this weekend. Worked great. I feel very comfortable setting the pitch in a quintet with this horn in any register, something I can't say for many F tubas I have played sans the 621. I have been oiling the valves with BlueJuice to clean them and break them in and they are doing fine. I have the first slide moving quickly now after a good cleaning and Hetman's light and am working on the 5th, I don't anticipate ever moving any others (and the 5th is only for the very low register.) I ended one piece with a low Db dropped the octave - all 5 valves down and the 5th pulled 2-3 inches, and that note just popped. 186 beats 188 any day in this register.

Minor complaints after spending more time with the horn:
1. This thing is HEAVY, I think it is heavier than my beloved (and soon to be departed ) 6/4 Kalison.
2. The half round reinforcing strip on the bottom is not the most comfortable when holding the horn at an angle as it presses into the leg; I may just have it desoldered to keep a smooth bottom bow. Still, it is better than the emasculator on some of the vintage Miraphones.
3. I am short, but the leadpipe is still low, even when tilted at a significant angle. I don't know if this is just my horn, or if they are all like that. I may build a "block" like a lot of the guys in NYC used before tuba stands became all the rage. I may even try a Stewart Stand again, I last used one on my MW 25 (the stand has since been sold to Ken K on this board about a decade ago and soldered onto his Eb.) Or, I could just hold the horn on my lap, but I have always preferred to keep a contrabass on the chair; also see #1 and #2. Worst case, I could always have the leadpipe raised.
4. The lacquer is starting to wear a little in one contact point. I had it suggested to me I have the horn delacquered. As heavy as the horn is, this could only benefit the sound (or make no change at all), would make it look vintage (therefore cool in the eyes of horngeeks), and make any leadpipe or other chop work easier.

Again these are minor, easily fixed, and not dealbreakers by any means.
I had some reservations about the linkage at first, but with a little regular maintenance it should last.

[DavidB]

What is the bore size on that horn? ...

The bore size is listed as 0.768" / 19.5mm.

TTYL
David

[Ace]

I very much agree with Mark Jones' enthusiasm about the Schiller CC tuba-----it's a great horn for the price, even double the price. Since I have had my Schiller CC I come to like it better each day.

I do some trombone work in large churches in this area, playing big-scale choral/orchestral oratorios, masses, etc. These are usually scored for alto/tenor/bass trombones. I decided I'd buy an inexpensive alto trombone and selected the Schiller 3 piston Eb.
http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _3641.html" target="_blank" target="_blank
When it arrived, I was not disappointed--------it's a killer horn, built with the same quality as my Schiller tuba. The sound and intonation are flawless, and the piston valves are as good as any piston set I've ever experienced. It was a bit pricey, however-------$357 on the auction site. LOL

[MartyNeilan]

I decided I'd buy an inexpensive alto trombone and selected the Schiller 3 piston Eb.

I must admit, I have never seen an alto valve trombone until now. Obviously you have found a good use for it.

[bisontuba]

HI-
I had to do nothing to get the horn to work--no adjustments, etc.--just pulled it out of the box, oiled and lubed it, and started playing. Sweet horn.
I
mark

[TubaTodd]

I have heard too of a 6/4 CC being worked on in China--should be interesting.

Note sure if M&M and Schiller are really the same animals, BUT M&M has a 6/4 BBb (TU-2000) already. I wonder if the CC is a variation on that horn.

[TexTuba]

Okay, I am REALLY curious about these now. Where are y'all picking them up from?

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Bought mine on ebay. I saw the complaints link too, but saw their ebay rating of 98.9% positive with over 3000 feedbacks-so I called them, and got a good feeling, and --at least my experience--was positive with Jim Laabs Music.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@Juno.com" target="_blank

[Ace]

Hi-
Bought mine on ebay. I saw the complaints link too, but saw their ebay rating of 98.9% positive with over 3000 feedbacks-so I called them, and got a good feeling, and --at least my experience--was positive with Jim Laabs Music.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@Juno.com" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Yes, my purchases were from the auction site also, and I saw the very favorable satisfaction rating for Laabs Music. I had a few e-mail and telephone exchanges with Laabs and was treated courteously. I've had no problems at all with that company.

[Bob Kolada]

I believe that 2341-looking Bb has been discussed here before, and the consensus is that it is a 4/4.

[UTSAtuba]

Okay, I am REALLY curious about these now. Where are y'all picking them up from?

I told you something "fishy" was going on, Ralph. Makes me wonder how much money I'll save if I just...

[MartyNeilan]

I have heard too of a 6/4 CC being worked on in China--should be interesting.

Note sure if M&M and Schiller are really the same animals, BUT M&M has a 6/4 BBb (TU-2000) already. I wonder if the CC is a variation on that horn.

Large 4/4, 5/4 at best. Definitely not 6/4.

[TubaTodd]

I have heard too of a 6/4 CC being worked on in China--should be interesting.

Note sure if M&M and Schiller are really the same animals, BUT M&M has a 6/4 BBb (TU-2000) already. I wonder if the CC is a variation on that horn.

Large 4/4, 5/4 at best. Definitely not 6/4.

Oops. It looked like a monster compared to some of the other pictures on the same site. Now that I look at it AS a 4/4 I agree. Hmmm, is this another Hirsbrunner copy? This time a piston model?

So are M&M and Schiller the same horns with different labels?

[Dan Schultz]

.... So are M&M and Schiller the same horns with different labels?

Well.... sort of. In speaking with representatives of both companies, I get the impression that even though the horns are essentially the same.... there may be a difference in quality levels.

I've kept fairly quite through this thread and have NOTHING against some of these new lines of tubas... regardless of the country of origin or the sellers. We're now in a World market and quite frankly.... NO ONE could afford a horn that has these same characteristics that was built using US materials and labor.

I know that I can pick up the phone and buy parts for many of the 'standards' like Yamaha, Mirafone, Conn, King, etc. etc. etc.. It's been my experience with many of the new names out there that there is little or no parts support. The horns might play OK now but a little damage down the road (through no fault of the horn) may render it useless. I say this with absolutely no malice towards any country, manufacturer, agent, or retailer.

I think some of these brands and sellers need a little more time before I'm ready to endorse them. At these prices, I think there are going to be a lot of 'parts horns' floating around in a few years.

[TubaTodd]

...I know that I can pick up the phone and buy parts for many of the 'standards' like Yamaha, Mirafone, Conn, King, etc. etc. etc.. It's been my experience with many of the new names out there that there is little or no parts support....

I know there may not be any "drop in" replacement parts currently available from the original manufacturer, but are none of the parts of the same or similar size to other makes and models? Can you give me an example of a part that you would like to order but can't?

(I'm not planning on purchasing one of these horns. I'm just curious the hurdles from the repairman's perspective.)

[Frank Ortega]

Does anyone know who retails for Schiller and M&M?
Do any shops in the Northeast sell these horns?
I'd love to try one or two out, but don't want to fly to Fla or the Midwest to do it!

BTw, Marty, what model was that gigantic Miraphone BBb you had when we were in HS? That was a whole lotta horn!

Frank Ortega

[MartyNeilan]

Does anyone know who retails for Schiller and M&M?
Do any shops in the Northeast sell these horns?
I'd love to try one or two out, but don't want to fly to Fla or the Midwest to do it!

BTw, Marty, what model was that gigantic Miraphone BBb you had when we were in HS? That was a whole lotta horn!

Frank Ortega

Best way to buy the Schiller brand is off EBay. Jim Labs Music sells them there and on their website; but the ebay auctions usually come out cheaper. I cannot speak for any horn other than the 5 valve CC; my copy is a very good horn; absolutely incredible for the price.

That was a 190 BBb. Great but flawed horn - anything over FF was edge city as you probably well remember. VERY thin metal horn. I kept adding packing tape and braces in an attempt to tame it. Perhaps if I had my MegaMouthpiece then it would have helped a little. Lee Stofer has the carcass of that horn; it is in serious need of an overhaul and probably a valve job; I traded it to him in exchange for major repair work on two horns. After switching to that Bohm and Meinl CC, my playing really took a dive. Pitch and response was just way too uneven, and I was fighting the horn the whole time, despite the overall decent sound of it. I didn't really get back into myself until I got that Mirafone 1290 some years back - it reminded me of a slightly smaller version of the 190 but without the edge issue. The new 190's are probably the same gauge as the other Miraphones, which is much thicker than my old 190. It's funny, playing that 186 wannabe now brings back slight 190 memories. The reason I chose the 190 at the time was that it played and sounded a lot like a 186; just bigger in every way. The 188 is a total different beast from the two and never did anything for me.

[Dan Schultz]

...I know that I can pick up the phone and buy parts for many of the 'standards' like Yamaha, Mirafone, Conn, King, etc. etc. etc.. It's been my experience with many of the new names out there that there is little or no parts support....

I know there may not be any "drop in" replacement parts currently available from the original manufacturer, but are none of the parts of the same or similar size to other makes and models? Can you give me an example of a part that you would like to order but can't?

(I'm not planning on purchasing one of these horns. I'm just curious the hurdles from the repairman's perspective.)

I'm simply saying that you would probably have one heck of a time buying a new rotor if somehow the stop-arm end of a rotor got bent. Don't think this can't happen to your horn. It's very high on the list of common repairs that I'm asked to perform on rotary tubas... especially those in service in public schools.

My most recent encounter was asking for a replacement main tuning slide so it could be modified to lower the pitch on one of these Chinese horns. This slide has been on order since mid-August.

Again... I want to make my position perfectly clear.... we are in a World market. These products are made for the initial sale. They are disposable. You're simply not going to get a great tuba for under $2,000.

What will happen here is that some of the other manufacturers will be forced to rethink their marketing networks. The same thing is happening here that happened with the automotive market 25 years ago. The imports got better and the domestics also got more competitive and better. Remember the Yugo? It just proved that you couldn't buy a great car for under $2,000, either.