CC Tuba for a doubler

[Eflatdoubler]

I starting out looking primarily for an E flat tuba, but I am open to a CC tuba so long as it is easy to play since I am a professional trombonist looking for a horn to double on for shows and perhaps a brass quintet (if I get adventurous!). The price of a JZ 5 valve CC or a TE-401 (or a St. Petes) is quite attractive- has anyone tried one from Baltimore Brass or the Tuba Exchange to offer any recommendations or opinions? I am open to other horns too. I would like to keep the price under $3,500.

[Donn]

Wait for this guy to put one of these on eBay for under $2K:

http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _4162.html

I suppose "Frankfurt, Germany" is not outright fraud, since they probably do have an office there or something, but what is the "American Heritage" angle on a Chinese copy of a German C rotary valve tuba?

[Eflatdoubler]

How are the Schiiler tubas you mentioned in comparison to the JZ tubas or the Tuba Exchange tuba or a Sanders?
Thanks!

[djwesp]

This sounds like a perfect scenario for the "honda civic" of tubas.

Miraphone 186-CC5U

1. Tried and true. This horn has been produced for YEARS and has been the cornerstone of reliability in the tuba world. It is not uncommon to see these horns 30+ years into use, with little or no issues.

2. Inexpensive. Used, these horns are a steal. New, you are getting German craftsmanship, which while not what it was, is still light years better than 90% of the English and U.S. built instruments.

3. Repairable. Funny yes, but many ventures into the tuba world lead to instruments hard to repair. Why? Because fixing tubas (not "fixin them for public skools") is difficult and there aren't many people that can do it well. This horn is common enough that many people encounter it regularly, unlike many of the other horns you can drop a pretty dime in.

4. Resale! Yes, this horn loses resale value slowly. Because it is reliable and a well known name, you aren't going to buy this horn and get peanuts for it if you decide to sell.

5. Size. The middle man of the tuba world. It is big enough you can play it in large ensembles, quintet, and small enough that you can play some of the legitimate solo rep on it without the horn "getting in the way" too much. Especially considering you were just looking for a Eb, this is VERY similar in size to a lot of Eb's on the market.

[TUBAD83]

Wait for this guy to put one of these on eBay for under $2K:

http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-orche ... _4162.html

I suppose "Frankfurt, Germany" is not outright fraud, since they probably do have an office there or something, but what is the "American Heritage" angle on a Chinese copy of a German C rotary valve tuba?

Don you know what it is about: Getting Americans (who don't know much about tubas) to buy an "American style" tuba. People who know don't pay any attention to the "American Heritage" bit at all. Its just fluff.

JJ

[iiipopes]

186.

[Davy]

I also say 186; best all around CC tuba on the market, IMO.

[Bob Kolada]

Even though I haven't played one, I say a Conn 2J or the like. I dislike 186's.
You can get a good used horn for less than a new JZ/Schiller/.....

quinntheeskimo on eBay has a 2J for 2000, I believe.

I am a professional trombonist looking for a horn to double on for shows and perhaps a brass quintet (if I get adventurous!).

I would be slightly cautious about having a C instrument mess with decades of Bb-edness.
Do you play bass trombone? Bass bone works really well on most quintet music (excepting super fast stuff and some oompah parts, though a too-big mp will tub down one nicely).

[jeopardymaster]

Quinn is a good one to work with, I'll vouch for that. As for comparing 2Js and 186s, I've found diamonds and dogs in both flavors, but overall I think the Mirafones are a bit more consistently good.

[Ken Herrick]

Bob Kolada andThe Elephant have hit the mark in my view. There would be a good range of new and used BBb possibilities. A good little Conn 5J could even be a good choice. A lot of people knock them but I have previously used one which gave me something with which I could cover any job including quintet to full orchestra and solo work including RVW.

A BIG advantage is that if you decided to also double on euphonium - assuming you don't already - the fingerings and certainly the sight to pitch connection is already built in. Open corresponds to 1st position - 4th to an F trigger etc. and a Bb partial series. A LOT easier for most to transfer the learned sequence of responses and actions required to produce a good tone at correct pitch. You should be able to find a good 4v instrument in your price range.

Consider all options - as you seem to be doing - then go for it.

[Eflatdoubler]

Thanks for the feedback. I wish I could play a B flat for my brain, but when shows such as the lion king come to town, they will not hire a player with a B flat tuba (there are some low B's to play) regardless of the ability of the player.

Which leads me to a CC tuba. I do double on bass trombone and euphonium. I mainly want this tuba for shows.
So, if you have knowledge and advice on the JZ vs. Schiller vs. Tuba Exchange model or any other sub 3 thousand dollar tuba I would love to hear from you! Thanks again!

[Barney]

There seems to be a bit of confusion in this thread regarding the Lion King and it's demands.

The show was orchestrated by LA writers (Bob Elhai, Dave Metzger, Bruce Fowler), guys that commonly write for films. When they scored this particular show, not only did they write the lowest, hardest bass trombone part I've ever seen on a show, they didn't dumb down the tuba part for a doubler as is common on Broadway.

There isn't a ton of tuba, but it is exposed and important, including a melody line scored above the french horns at the beginning of the show (up to c above the staff), and a lot of low, exposed bass lines. Low Eb's are very common, as are many, many PEDAL C's. Several of these pedal C's are crucial solos, as they are effects coordinated with action on stage. The end of Act 1 is tuba ALONE, holding a LOUD pedal C fermata.

On CC tuba (or an Eb or F tuba for that matter) a pedal C is a money note for most players. On a BBb tuba, not so much. And, for a doubler who likely spends little time on the tuba, it can be a disaster... and has been on the Lion King tour repeatedly.

A friend of mine was shocked to get a standing ovation from the touring musicians at the first rehearsal when he played the pedal C ending Act 1... When the simple playing of the part is cheered, that's an indicator of how bad this part is being butchered on the road on a regular basis.

I understand that some of that tuba part has been cued in the synthesizer, to bail out a player who just can't play the part... But, I think the expectation is still there that a professional musician will perform the part in front of him, and I applaud that ideal. I also applaud the doubler who seeks out the right instrument to be able to perform the music correctly.

[Donn]

If you cannot play it one one horn, a different one will not help you at all. This is crap. Sorry. But it is.

Well, ah, hm. Note that this guy makes no claim to be an advanced tuba player, in fact there's no reason to believe he's ever played at all.

His initial notion (and his prospective employers') was that a B would be a stronger note on an Eb tuba. And indeed, in my experience as a not particularly advanced tuba player, it is a stronger note, as in general are those notes with less valve tubing. Likewise, I can play pedal C more easily on an Eb tuba than Bb, because on mine anyway with all four valves on it there is too much resistance.

I'm not writing in support of the notion that an employer should feel welcome to dictate a musician's choice of instrument, that's bad news. Nor am I saying that an Eb tuba can play the notes you need better - in fact, I can't see why you might not just as likely need a low A, in which case you'd want the Bb tuba, etc. Clearly in the big picture, a tuba player should select a good general purpose tuba and learn to play all the usual notes, and that's not an unreasonably difficult undertaking. But that doesn't mean every note on a tuba is just as strong as any other. (Luckily, no one has suggested yet that he get an F tuba, which as you know probably couldn't even play low C, let alone B!)

[imperialbari]

stercus tauri

Is that what your shoes are soaked in now, Pachy?

Apprenticing with Paul Sidey?

K

[jonesbrass]

I know a couple of bass trombonists here in the southland that have played the Lion King . . . both used BBb tubas . . .

[Barney]

You're absolutely right, Wade... it shouldn't matter what key the tuba is in.

But....... after years of touring and hearing awful tuba playing, the Music Directors of these touring companies have had better luck when a player with a CC tuba appears. Maybe, the demand for CC simply filters out the weaker doublers... Maybe the fact that you can shift (einsetzen, if you'd prefer a more orchestral term), and slam out those big solo pedal notes on a CC or smaller horn makes all the difference for many players...

I know, I know, as you so eloquently stated, it's crap. But so is horrible sounding tuba playing. Who wants to hear, or pay for, that? Not the mouse, it appears.

[Ken Herrick]

I guess it comes down to deciding whether or not one wants to make the compromise to possibly get this particular gig. I agree it should be what comes out of the bell that counts but, if it is the "less than well informed" who decide who is going to get the $$$$$$$$ for doing the job you might just have to go with the flow if you want the dough.

This could well be a case of people thinking that "pros only play CC and that if you don't you can't be any good. That line has had a long life here, even, where one might expect more enlightened thought. Yep, crap - but that's life.

If it makes economic sense to get a CC to get the job go ahead - you can always sell it later and get what you really want.

[Donn]

This could well be a case of people thinking that "pros only play CC and that if you don't you can't be any good. That line has had a long life here, even, where one might expect more enlightened thought.

Or Eb? From reading the threads, you could infer that someone here talked him into CC, after he asked about Eb. Now that he asks about CC, someone tries to talk him into BBb. That line has certainly had a long life here! I don't know about `if you don't you can't be any good,' I bet you can't find that one in the archives of this forum anywhere.

[Eflatdoubler]

Wow, a lot of replies indeed!
I am open to playing an E flat tuba or a CC tuba. Of course you need to vibrate the lips correctly regardless of the tuba you are playing on. Different horns have different sound colors too. I can play many things on tenor trombone or alto, and my decision is usually based off of the color and texture I would like to achieve.
I am not here to argue what is the best key, or if it is correct for someone to wish for a certain keyed instrument. In the end a conductor likes what they like, just as we all like a particular sound that one instrument may assist us in achieving more easily over another... (look at trumpet players and their choices of B flat/C/D/E flat or pic!) I play professionally and was just hoping to get some more advice or avenues to pursue before making a purchase. I am aware that most players do play CC/F/ or E flat tuba. I had originally liked the idea of an E flat because it was small enough yet big enough. I play a bit of euphonium too, so of course B flat was on the mind, but although there are great horns I would rather something that is more in between in size...
Thank you to those of you that filled in the blanks and also added to this posting with info I was not aware of. Also, I appreciate the opinions of those that are passionate about being able to play whatever they like also. This whole thread was to seek help finding a CC tuba under $3,500, with the sole requirement of it being easy to play for a doubler and well in tune without having to go too crazy on the valve slides...
I would like to restate the question again...does anyone know of a good CC tuba under $3,500, and has anyone compared these Chinese tubas such as those from Dillons, Tuba Exchange or Baltimore Brass? or Sanders tubas? Once again, thank you!

[Bob Kolada]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Elkhart-Conn-2J-4-V ... 3ca7556737" target="_blank