Traditions/Meistersinger - need published references

[tubadoug]

I am in the process of putting together a paper/presentation for a performance practice seminar at McGill University. The assignment is to focus on a classical or romantic solo or extended excerpt for your own instrument. I chose to write my paper on the overture to Die Meistersinger.
I introduced my professor to the contrabass/bass tuba debate, as well as the E-flat/F and B-flat/C debate. I explained the tradition Germany and how it is different from the tradition in the UK and the US. I intend to focus my presentation on instrument choice and national traditions, though I plan to include other information about performance practice. This is a master's level presentation and I need to be able to reference published sources. I was wondering if anyone on this forum could recommend some worthwhile published sources regarding national tuba traditions and/or the tuba part in Die Meistersinger?
In addition to published sources, my professor recommended trying to find audition descriptions that specifically address tuba choice. Does anyone have a copy/know where I can find a copy of an orchestra audition posting that specifically calls for a particular key of tuba?
Again, I appreciate any help that I can get, but please note that I am seeking referalls to published sources. I cannot use any persons post from this forum in my presentation or paper because it is not published.

thank you,
Doug

[Ken Herrick]

Good Luck, Doug!!!!!!!!!

I have the feeling you may be tackling the near impossible here and possibly should be having a chat with your prof about getting some alternate topic. I would just about bet that the prof is a piano or fiddle player or some such for whom there is a vast repertoir from which to choose along with a fair amount of "published" discussion of performance practice.

From my personal experience, I can not recall any "audition descriptions that specifically address tuba choice". For instance, I can not recall the Boston SO making any reference at all to instrument selection for the audition back in the 60's which was won by Chester. There was a fairly lengthy list of excerpts and RVW Concerto but no direction about anything to be played on say F, CC, cimbasso, ophecliede or anything else. Many players, dare I say the bulk, would have gone to audition with their one and only instrument, and Yes many would have had BBb only! A fairly limited percentage might have had an F as well.

If you must proceed with this restrictive assignment it might be an idea to approach current players such as Carol Jantsch, Gene Pokorny, and any members here for something in writing to document anything they might be able to offer on the subject. ITEA journals might have something on the subject but, I would suspect that they would highlight the wide diversity of opinions rather than leading to any sort of established "performance practice".

Possibly something like Berlioz Fantastique would give a bit more scope - but even there you can't lay down much based on 'published' performance practice discussion. Considering that it was written for ophecliede, which is only occassionally used and the way that from one performance to the next with only one orchestra their are variations such as 2 CC, 1 F & 1 CC, 2 F, a BBb in combination with any thing else. Bydlo has been done on everything from monster BBb to euphonium or even french horn

I very much doubt that there is any citable body of "published" discussion on the topic. It is a shame that "electronic publishing" is not allowed. If that were to be relaxed maybe 20 or so "recognised" players from around the world could present their thought on this in a forum for you to present. I hope, for your sake that others here might know of some source material hidden away somewhere.

[Rick Denney]

Start with Clifford Bevan's The Tuba Family.

And the only orchestra I've ever heard of that even might have specified an instrument was Vienna.

For published sources, I suggest a library.

Rick "no books here" Denney

[tubadoug]

Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful responses so far. I have heard three times today that Vienna specifically asked for specific keys of tubas. Is there any record of this written down somewhere?
ITEA journals may be on the border as far as what my professor would consider a "credible source". However, she is a reasonable person and if it is the only source I can find than I will use it. Are there any particular issues that someone could point me to?
I am aware that I may hit a dead end with this topic. However, if my conclusion turns out to be that there is a known tradition that is simply not written down then that is what I will write. The important factor is that I research what I can and discover why I cannot draw a neatly packaged conclusion. In fact, I have received lower scores for presentations that have been "too conclusive" in the past!

thanks again,
Doug

[pgym]

Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful responses so far. I have heard three times today that Vienna specifically asked for specific keys of tubas. Is there any record of this written down somewhere?

You mean besides the listing for Bass and Contra-bass tuba audition (which includes Die Meistersinger) on their website?

You might want to contact them directly since they would be better positioned to supply documentation of their past audition requirements than the TNFJ.

[Ken Herrick]

You mean besides the listing for Bass and Contra-bass tuba audition (which includes Die Meistersinger) on their website?


Good IDEA!!!!!!!!

You might want to contact them directly since they would be better positioned to supply documentation of their past audition requirements than the TNFJ.[/quote]

I wonder what will happen to anybody showing up with a CC instead of BBb?
It would have been VERY interesting to see what their accepted version of RVW would be.

Well here is a start, Doug, if electronic publishing were to be accepted.

Good luck. This might make a good article to put up here one day - or in the journal.

[Rick Denney]

Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful responses so far. I have heard three times today that Vienna specifically asked for specific keys of tubas. Is there any record of this written down somewhere?

This seems to be my day to be an obnoxious curmudgeon. But the exercise is to do your own research, and the answer is much less important than the journey you travel in getting it. Ken and Joe pointed you to a website that you should have been able to find for yourself in less time than it took them. They should have made you do it.

By the way, opinions on the Internet have no authority. Opinions in published materials don't have any more authority than opinions on the Internet. Facts on the Internet have to be verified. Facts in published books have to be verified. First-hand material, even if you get it from the Internet, is worth more than someone talking about that material in a book or article. Remember that.

ITEA journals may be on the border as far as what my professor would consider a "credible source". However, she is a reasonable person and if it is the only source I can find than I will use it. Are there any particular issues that someone could point me to?

Do you have access to a music library? Do they not have all the TUBA/ITEA journals on the shelf? If they don't, schedule a trip to one that does. Part of doing research is in seeing all the stuff that doesn't help in addition to the stuff that does, to keep yourself from searching to support a conclusion before you have the basis for drawing it. And you'll still want to follow the references in whatever articles you find to get back to those first-hand materials those Journal authors used.

I am aware that I may hit a dead end with this topic. However, if my conclusion turns out to be that there is a known tradition that is simply not written down then that is what I will write. The important factor is that I research what I can and discover why I cannot draw a neatly packaged conclusion. In fact, I have received lower scores for presentations that have been "too conclusive" in the past!

Bevan is the only published source I know of that discusses national practice around the world. His book is published, but that doesn't make it an oracle. It's on the shelf right next to the TUBA journals. I'll give you another hint: It was published in 1978 by Scriveners. Find the first edition, then find the second edition--they aren't exactly the same. Another hint: The second edition is private published by Piccolo Press. You should buy the second edition--most can't afford the first which is long out of print.

By the way, I'm an idiot amateur. My knowing no other source doesn't mean it doesn't exist. By the time you graduate, I hope you'll know a lot more than people like me.

Sorry to be a jerk, but you come on here telling us that what we are likely to say is undocumentable and therefore worthless to you, but you want us to point you to specific published sources so you don't have to do your own exploration. I mean, really, the entire tuba literature can be consumed in a couple of weeks of dedicated reading.

Rick "who says the same thing to engineering grad students" Denney

[awaters]

check the Royal Scottish audition list... best wishes ... i thought the idea was you had to do the research

[tubadoug]

Thanks again for this great information. I am sorry if some believe I posted this response in order for someone to do my work for me. I do believe that there a lot of very well-informed people that use this website and I simply posted my request because I am using tubenet as one of my sources. Furthermore, I hope I did not offend anyone by suggesting that what people post is not credible - I have been "lurking" on tubenet for many years and have learned a lot. I only emphasized "published" so that people would know what I can and cannot use in my presentation.

Sorry to be a jerk, but you come on here telling us that what we are likely to say is undocumentable and therefore worthless to you, but you want us to point you to specific published sources so you don't have to do your own exploration.

No worries! Your posts have been helpful - I may not be able to "cite" them in a paper but they are certainly not worthless to me! I certainly understand the necessity for personal exploration and posting this is actually part of my search. My library catalog and librarians are quite helpful but I know from reading this forum that there are a lot of people that use this forum that know more about tuba-related material than the average librarian.

I mean, really, the entire tuba literature can be consumed in a couple of weeks of dedicated reading.

The more time I spend in the library the more this seems to be true! For this assignment I find myself mostly reading material having nothing to do with the tuba because there is a lot more of that available. The difficulty now is finding a way to link all of the information in a coherent and truthful way. Hopefully one day, assuming we keep sharing information like we do via Tubenet, we will have as many sources related to our instrument as some our colleagues.

thanks again,
Doug

[Ken Herrick]

This may give you a garden trowel to dig with....

Back in the earlier tubenet days there was an Indiana U librarian named "Carol" who played tuba, was quite active on the board and was doing a fair amount of research on all things tuba including interviews with Harvey and others. If you can find her and make contact she just may be able to guide you in the right direction.

Afraid I haven't the time right now to get you much closer but if you go through the archives, etc. possibly scratching through some of my old posts you might find her. I recall one post of hers on the topic of "citing wars" a rather interesting topic for someone in your position.

I remeber when I was working on a thesis back then the "validity" of source material was a problem. On application I was granted to permission to use transcripts of "interviews" I made with various people along with a "limited" amount of downloaded material as long as it included details such as URL.

Keep digging, good luck, and consider "publishing" your findings here.

Oh yes - better include some inane ramblings from the ole bugger........

When I was in high school about 45 years ago I did a "term paper" on the history of the tuba. Fully documented research type stuff in proper thesis style for Sr English class. A couple years later, while at Northwestern I was digging in the music school library and found a masters thesis on the very topic. I could have sworn somebody had copied my paper, which pre-dated it. Shame I didn't have my original copy to turn in 40+ years later!!!!

[jdicesar]

I may have something that could help. Shoot me an email and i'll send it over.

jdicesar@kent.edu" target="_blank

[Kutz]

I saw this topic and was wondering how it would unfold. It is certainly interesting, but not a surprise that there are few, if any, true "references" out there that may be of any help for this topic. There have been a few dissertations written on "performance practices" for various composers (Strauss, Mahler, Berlioz, etc) and finding these (Dissertation abstracts is a good start), and extracting the information for this project may be more trouble than it is worth.
I have done my studies in NAmerica, and now play in Europe and these are the basic practices that you will see. OF COURSE you find variations dependent upon the orchestra, conductors desires and etc. No need for debate on this.

In North America, to play the Meistersinger one could choose virtually anything and the commission would not take issue with that. Many lists will ask it on the BASS tuba, but more often it won't have any specifications at all. When I studied, I was encouraged to play it on all the instruments, just in case...but that is not the question here.

Now in Europe, you are going to find a WIDE variety of traditions, few which represent a 'pure' tradition when it comes to the tuba. Germany/Austrian auditions are very specific [ some even so specific as to encourage (it's unwritten so...here's when you have to be in the know!) the playing of a specific brand]. These auditions will state that you have the obligation to play BBb tuba and Cimbasso (when needed). The underlying assumption at these auditions is that you will play F tuba...and F Rotary (sorry, pistons are not so welcomed). And more often ..BIG F tubas (generally the choice is not for small bore MW's here).
BBb tubas will also be rotary by the way, it is just what is done. The lists for these auditions are heavily weighted to the F tuba, leaving only a few excerpts for the BBb and Meistersinger is NOT one of them). Tony Kniffen can give you a better idea of the time that he was in Germany adjusting to their way of playing...NOT the other way around.

Now in the Netherlands (Benelux) there is less of a tradition, but many people have come from the Fanfare traditions so we do see EEb's, and some BBb's along the way. Mostly, the auditions are free from telling you what to play on, but usually the Meistersinger is played on the bass tuba. Few people play the "solo" Contrabass instruments on this if ever. I play the opening on the CC, and the rest on F...but that's too many tubas to carry up the stairs sometimes so...F tuba is MORE than enough.
France has also a mix of ideas (with the mix of teaching since Culbertson arrived), but Meistersinger will be on the list as Bass Tuba. I can also assume (although its not my region) that the Nordic countries would also follow the same. Piston or rotary, doesn't really matter. Look for Italy to be very similar (ask Alessandro Fossi).

In England, the traditions are also pretty clear, EEb tuba is used alot (for things that you wouldn't imagine like Mahler, Bruckner and Strauss), but it is clear that the Brits primarily use an EEb for Meistersinger.

You see, this is the real problem..the traditions (if there are any) are generally dictated by the people in the orchestra at the time (what they are used to). One of the auditions I did recently asked for some excerpts that I would normally play on Contra tuba, to be played on the F tuba (not Meistersinger). Their list was very specific with instruments (EEb,F and CC), basically excluding the German players; its europe, and everyone has their thing.(The crazy thing was that the EXPERT was from a German orchestra and didn't like the sound from pretty much everyone!.. )

I think that if you look at the essays on orchestration from the periods, you will have a better idea what the "tradition" should be. That information, of course , is useless in today's practice because the orchestras expectations in sound are very specific, and that will generally help your choice of instrument.
Wagner's music is associated with a certain weightiness in the sound, but MORE often requires a bass tuba to blend into the orchestration that he created (Flying Dutchman=Ophicliede(original), Rienzi, etc...).
I understand from speaking with many European conductors that most of Strauss should be played on an F tuba (that includes Heldenleben), as well as much of the Mahler repetoire (except where noted). Bruckner was pretty specific for the tuba based on the concepts from the organ registers.

The one issue that also contributes to "tradition" is the halls in Europe. Typically smaller, the F tuba typically sounds better in (Meistersinger) these situations as these rooms resonate so much that a contratuba will most certainly cover the orchestra. American halls require more sound, period. So the choice of instruments (and therefore the traditions) are reflected accordingly.

Hopefully this helps. Maybe an adjustment of topic could lead to a "Register of Instrument usage as performance practice (2009)" for tubaists in North America and European orchestras (?).

Good luck, DK
Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra

[sloan]

All of which goes to illlustrate:

a) you need to know the published literature well enough to be able to say "there are no adequate 'published references'".

b) and then, you need to ferret out UNpublished references. "Personal Communications" from individuals qualified to give opinions based on personal experience (not second hand), are what you want

c) and then, you PUBLISH, so that the next guy has a "published reference" to rely upon.

Some projects fail at step a). It takes a lot of years, and a lot of time in the library,
to become qualified to say "it doesn't exist".

Step b) is what separates the men from the boys. This is where your efforts can actually create new knowledge (rather than simply repeating what is already known).

Step c) is what "publish or perish" is all about.