problem with "Besson" 3+1 comp. tubas

[Ken Herrick]

VEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRY interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had not thought about this until reading your post, Joe.

I think this is an ongoing problem and suspect it might even apply with the new YORK that Andycat reported on. I had forgotten all about what I used to do with these beasts. Instead of a felt in the finger button I used to put them in the groove on the actual valve cap as there was still room there for a felt.

I just took the top felts off the 992 and yes, found a definite improvement in response and tone quality and there seems to still be space for a washer with the finger button screwed right in. even with 1,2,3,4 the stuffiness problem is not so bad. i just wish i had some material to work with to determine the correct thickness to use but just have NOTHING to work with - though will let you know straight away if I find a way to determine a good thickness.

This could make for an easier solution.

Ken

[iiipopes]

I had to do that to an old Jay "Columbia" eefer tuba I borrowed once: unscrew the valve buttons a couple of turns so the piston could go down farther and everything lined up better.

[sloan]

My (modified) 1970's Eb Besson 3+1 has been given the bloke Extenz treatment.

It's now quiet, *and* plays realGood. (it's also missing the ill-advised tuning stick folderol that someone added to it in the distant past and it will *soon* have a brand new custom made #3 compensating loop designed to fix the 3 notes that offended bloke's sense of pitch. The man *is* thorough!)

I'm using it for the Christmas Tour with a local community band and took it to rehearsal Tuesday night. It drew an approving comment from the conductor. That didn't happen last year - it MUST BE the new felts and those ever-so-slightly longer valve stems. Just think how much he'll like it with the new #3 compensating loop.

I was going to use it for TubaChristmas this year - but I think the Büscher helicon will make those trips instead. And then, the helicon goes to bloke for re-grooving. Who knows what bloke-felts will fit in a 1922 helicon - bloke, have you measured one of those, yet?

Actually, I have a TubaChristmas conundrum: my son the trombone player will accompany me, as usual. Lately, he's played the 1895(?) mystery-make Eb peashooter helicon. One plan is for us both to play Eb helicons. Another plan would be to go for maximum contrast with him on Eb peashooter (oh, all right - maybe he can use the Büscher) and me on the Conn 36J. Rumor has it that my bag for the 36J is "in the mail".

Decisions, decisions...

[iiipopes]

Bloke - may I repost your original post on the British brass-forum.co.uk in order to advise all the brass banders of what you have found?

[Wyvern]

It would be interesting to find out how widespread is this problem. Are B&S Imperial, Besson Standard and the more recent Sovereign all so afflicted?

As most of these tubas are in British brass bands, it might be worth posting this information on http://www.theMouthpiece.com . You might then get a lot of interest for your alignment kit 'Bloke'?

How much difference does it make to their playing after adjustment?

[Mike-ICR]

I found the same problem on a Besson recording bell 3v comper from the same period. I thought I was measuring wrong but I wasn't. I found a few cork washers with very small center holes and used those between the stems and finger buttons (the center holes were so small that the washers actually wedged between the stems and buttons). It wasn't whisper quiet and not as effective or elegant as Bloke's solution but it was better than the clacking. Good job, Bloke!

[iiipopes]

After reading this thread yesterday, I thought about it a lot. This morning, before going over to the inlaws, I got out my 3-valve comp and experimented, loosening each valve cap one by one a couple of turns, then a few turns, then almost all the way out, trying different combinations of throw.

Yes, when #1 and #3 were unscrewed, 1+3 C opened right up. Not completely, but I could definitely feel less resistance with a little bit farther down travel on the valves. HOWEVER, 2nd space C #1 started going flat in direct proportion to how much I unscrewed #1 valve cap. Also, 1st valve, 1st line Eb started wobbling on its intonation, needing concentration to really center it as each turn gave a different characteristic.

The best compromise for me and the way I play seemed to be leaving 1 screwed in all the way, # 2 about a full rotation out, and #3 about 2 full rotations out. This way low Db, C and Bnat were better, but didn't affect the mid and upper ranges.

BTW: low F 1+3 was unaffected and blew very open in any setting. All the other notes didn't seem to be affected much in any event.

So like anything else, "perfect" alignment doesn't always mean perfectly desireable blow or intonation characteristics, because there are always tradeoffs. Since I play in a band section setting, pitch intonation is more important than the occasional stuffy note, especially since you can't really "ride throttle" on #1 on an upright. If it were a front valve where I could shove #1 slide for C, I might go for the blokewashers completely. As it is, I'm going to do some fiddling down at the hardware store with some tiny washers to fine tune the response I desire out of this particular instrument.

bloke - thanks ever so much for the "heads-up!"

[cjk]

If the hole in the felt was much smaller so the valve stem does not fit through it, then remove the finger button and cram the felt on, then screw the button back on so the felt is pinched between the top of the stem and the button, would that do the trick ?

Just wondering.

[iiipopes]

No, because the thickness of the felt will still compress eventually under the button, causing everything to work loose.

[imperialbari]

Mine are 34mm on the 1970 Besson New Standard. I don’t at all dismiss bloke’s observations, actually I hope getting his adjusted washers soon. But the stuffiness factor also is related to the shape of the player. The A-flu epidemic has hit my country, and I woke shivering very early this morning, but no coughing. Normally I would sty quiet, but my Mike McLean mute arrived, so I couldn’t avoid trying it in the large BBb comper. Working scales in the range above and below the open pedal was a challenge on both the practice and the straight set-up’s of the McLean and on the large Ion Balu straight-mushroom mute. After that the notes right above the open pedal sounded very round and full on the non-muted tuba. I had been forced to open up and to work dedicated with the muscles at the same time.

Klaus

[Paul Scott]

Yup-had the same problem with my 1978 New Standard 3-valve compensating BBb tuba. I put some washers under the valve buttons (had enough thread left on mine) to alleviate the problem a bit. Had to use washers of a small enough diameter to avoid pushing the felt down, negating the whole thing. .Bloke's solution is the way to go.

I've found that Martin tubas were also made with "short stems".

[MaryAnn]

Well, if I were the potential customer, I would be unhappy to get a "surprise!" charge that was 2X of what I was expecting, no matter from whom. I'd expect the explanation to come ahead of time so that I could choose whether to get the 2X item or not. And you, as the seller, always would have the option of not selling the 1X item to someone if you were certain it would not work.

Just the way you worded it sounded like you were planning to do the "surprise!" charge instead of the up-front explanation. I would assume that 99% of buyers would opt for the 2X item but likely most would appreciate knowing about it ahead of time.

MA

[TubaTodd]

MaryAnn,

bloke said in his original post...

I'm going to need to charge double my regular price (still affordable, I hope you'll agree) for a set of washers for these tubas.

..which I imagine is to cover the cost of the extra labor required to make the spacers. Whatever the reason, he explained upfront that these washers would be twice as much as his standard synthetic washers.

[J.c. Sherman]

Is my horn the only Boosey with enough stem? I've run across several with a problem, but all had had the buttons replaced without the stem extension in the button. The stems are exactly at port when the top of the depressed stem is flush with the cap top.

Conns and Olds often have the same problems. This is exacerbated by the fact that the aftermarket parts from Allied do not have the needed recess/extension. Makes my hair stand on end.

J.c.S. (who notes that some Bessons accept the Conn recessed buttons).