Yamaha tubas good or bad?

[tubamonster]

I played a YBB-641 for three years. My main complaint is that the valves are slow and hard to push down. I know a guy who owns one but never plays it because it causes him wrist pain. (The hard case is also terrible. My tuba fell over while in the case and was crushed and had to be sent off for repair.) I've probably played five or more YBB-641 and they all play the same. The build quality is not as good as a Miraphone 186. The Yamaha dents fairly easy and the braces do not hold as well as they should. The braces will come undone after years even if you have not been rough on the tuba. I also think that the YBB-641 is overpriced. Overall a Miraphone 186 plays better, but it costs significantly less. I do like the low range of a YBB-641 better than the 186. As for other Yamaha tubas, I cannot say as I have not played them.

tubamonster

[Davy]

(The hard case is also terrible. My tuba fell over while in the case and was crushed and had to be sent off for repair)

Was it one of the burgandy cases? because I have a black one that is basically a tank of a case.

[Rick Denney]

Sticky Yamaha pistons are also caused by the softer metal they use to make the piston body (Monel Metal), corroding. This is a trade off. The softer metal is more easily damaged if dropped, more susceptible to corrosion, and wears faster. However, they are MUCH lighter, more easily fixed if damaged, and if you keep them clean and oiled are the fastest pistons around on a tuba. Yes, they do require more maintenance than the newer stainless steel valves on most horns now, but if you get a sticky set of valves they are much easier to massage and get running.

Chris, sorry, but I'm going to have to dispute what I suspect you were told by someone else.

Monel is, in fact, not unlike stainless steel and was invented as a high-strength alternative to ferrous metals. Monel is roughly 55% nickel and 45% copper, while stainless might be anything, but usually including quite a good dose of nickel (that's what makes it stainless). The coefficient of thermal expansion for Monel is 7.4 microinches/inch-degree-F, and that is right in the middle of the stainless-steel pack. The density is 0.320 pounds/cubic inch, which is again in the middle of the pack, and even a bit denser and heavier than the most common stainless steels (304 Stainless is 0.295). Monel has an ultimate tensile strength in the annealed state of about 70,000 psi, which is actually pretty darn strong, and stronger than a lot of steels (stainless or otherwise) and much stronger than brass. It can be hardened to 110,000 psi, which is 2-1/2 times as strong as structural steel. The stiffness (modulus of elasticity) is identical to steel and stainless steel, at 29,000 ksi. I can't find it's Rockwell hardness, but judging from the alloy and the other mechanical properties, it will also be similar to stainless steel. In terms of wear resistance, it will be similar to stainless (and to nickel-plated brass, at least until the plating wears through). Monel is as stainless and resistant to corrosion as many stainless steels.

I can't find any data for Monel to suggest that it is lighter, softer, more wearing, or easier to damage than stainless steel.

As far as Monel valves and sticking, or compatibility with certain oils, I have owned and used professionally a Yamaha 621 F tuba and that instrument required far more effort to get the valves running well, and is far pickier about oil, than any of my older tubas with nickel-plated brass valves, even those recently rebuilt (by Dave Secrist) and very tight. That doesn't make do anything to undermine my respect for that instrument, and I certainly never contemplated selling it, but what you describe of the tribulations of stainless valve owners exactly describes my own issues with the Yamaha. After careful lapping and by using the correct oil, they now work fine.

Rick "calling it like he sees it" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

After careful lapping and by using the correct oil, they now work fine.

BIngo. Too tight from the factory. New pistons should not have to be lapped. Of course, beats coming from the factory too loose

[Rick Denney]

Mark Mortier (that is not correct but that's as close as I can recall. I think he went on to teach at Ball State)) I heard Mark play his Yamaha Eb on numerous occasions.

You are thinking of Mark Mordue, and yes, he is a wonderful performer on his Yamaha Eb tuba.

On the general subject, Yamaha makes a very broad product line. Many of their instruments are based on classic designs that come from a wide range of sources. Some are wonderful, some not so. There is no way to generalize about Yamaha tubas, except that their construction will be competent but not beautiful.

Rick "whose Yamaha 621 is one of the best small F tubas ever made" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Sure. Thin brass, noisy rotors, hard to tune, the usual problems with most asian tubas. I've only played on 1 type of yamaha tuba the YBB 641.

Laddie, playing one of four 641's does not an expert on Yamahas make. Those particular models did not enjoy a universally wonderful reputation, though they were at least competent and they still have their fans. Some even love the 321 Bb, though everyone acknowledges that it is ungainly. Everyone I've ever known who has owned or even played a YCB-661 has praised it. Not everyone adores the 621 F tuba, but none can deny that it is a real workhorse that consistently delivers the goods. The 826 is by all accounts a world-class instrument in the grand orchestral class. The 201 is highly regarded as an effective instrument for young players. And on and on. They make more different kinds of tubas than anyone, many of which are in common professional service, and their instruments absolutely cannot be characterized as "typical Asian" instruments, assuming any instrument can.

Rick "thinking some of the younger folk are going to cringe 10 years from now when they read their old posts in the archives" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

..... Monel is, in fact, not unlike stainless steel and was invented as a high-strength alternative to ferrous metals. Monel is roughly 55% nickel and 45% copper, while stainless might be anything, but usually including quite a good dose of nickel (that's what makes it stainless)......

Rick... I guess I could start a new thread about this but here goes....

I've often wondered why some manufacturers have chosen Monel over conventional brass valves with brass crossports. There has to be a manufacturing advantage to the use of Monel. Having been involved in manufacturing for over 35 years, I've never once heard management or the Board of Directors say "hey guys... let's figure out a way to use a more expensive material that's more difficult to work without increasing the cost".

When Monel was first being touted, I thought it was some sort of investment casting that eliminated all the handwork that's required to build pistons.

What's your take on the reasoning?

[TUbajohn20J]

Sure. Thin brass, noisy rotors, hard to tune, the usual problems with most asian tubas. I've only played on 1 type of yamaha tuba the YBB 641.

Laddie, playing one of four 641's does not an expert on Yamahas make....

...Rick "thinking some of the younger folk are going to cringe 10 years from now when they read their old posts in the archives" Denney

I've played all four of those tubas and they are all pretty much equal..noisy valves etc. I have also played other 641's at different places and I can too say that they were all pretty much the same and also had the same problems. I would never purchase a Yamaha tuba just because I've had too many bad experiences on them. As I stated earlier, this is my opinion because I have not played all of the Yamaha models so I couldnt say the good or bad about them. I'm sure there are a few good Yamaha tubas out there, I just haven't stumbled across any. And I stand by my opinion now and probably will 10 years from now also because I do not plan on owning, or playing on anymore Yamahas or other "Asian" tubas. This isn't meant to disrespect any Yamaha lovers, it's just how I feel. Thanks

[Ken Herrick]

[quote="TubaTinker
I've often wondered why some manufacturers have chosen Monel over conventional brass valves with brass crossports. There has to be a manufacturing advantage to the use of Monel. Having been involved in manufacturing for over 35 years, I've never once heard management or the Board of Directors say "hey guys... let's figure out a way to use a more expensive material that's more difficult to work without increasing the cost".

[/quote]

The use of monel would eliminate the need for multiple plating and sizing steps. Once the ports have been inserted the excess can be machined off and the valve then sized without having to do a copper plating, resize (mainly to remove edge build up) then nickle plate and again resize. As labor costs are the predominant part of the cost of building an instrument any savings made there will soon off set higher material costs.

While we're at it.....

Rick, I really wonder how many of those will even still be around in the tuba world to look back at their posts from ten years past!!!!!!! he he he

[WakinAZ]

There is Japan, and then there is the rest of Asia. When "Made in Japan" meant cheap (at least 15-20 years ago), maybe Yamahas were constructed poorly, but Yamaha's current build quality equals or exceeds the larger European makers.

(That being said, I saw somewhere that maybe they were going to start farming out to Taiwan or worse?)

Also, I think it's better to buy a Yamaha piston instrument used, so the pistons are already broken in.

Eric "former satisfied Yamaha owner" L.

[Rick Denney]

As I stated earlier, this is my opinion because I have not played all of the Yamaha models so I couldnt say the good or bad about them.

This is a pet peeve of mine and you'll forgive me for cutting you no slack on this one. By your own admission, you have no basis for any opinion of any model other than the 641. An opinion is not a "feeling". It is a judgment based on subjective evidence. So, if you haven't played an instrument, you can have no opinion on it one way or the other. You can only have speculation based on extrapolation.

Has Hirsbrunner made dogs? (Yes.) Should we judge all Kings by, say, the Flugabone or some other junkophone? (I hope not.) Should I declare that all Holtons are bad because the valves on my BB-345 are clunky (which they are)? I could, but I'd be trading something important for something unimportant. Up to you.

But when you make three-word sweeping declarations based on having only limited experience with one model, and that based on examples that your predecessors probably drop-kicked all over the band room, I'm going to refute it. Time for the long pants.

Yamaha makes instruments intended for schools that are designed to hit a price point, and instruments intended for pros that are priced accordingly. Some pretty high-end pros have and still play the latter. I guess they just don't have enough experience, probably having never played a high-school-owned 641.

Rick "words mean things" Denney

[Rick Denney]

There is Japan, and then there is the rest of Asia. When "Made in Japan" meant cheap (at least 15-20 years ago)...

"At least" indeed. Try 40-50 years ago. I bought my 621 15-20 years ago, and Daellenbach started playing his YCB-621 in the Canadian Brass nearly 30 years ago. Yamaha had already covered a lot of ground up to that point. Even when I was in high school (35 years ago), Yamaha instruments were becoming quite well-regarded with such examples as the Severenson-model trumpet.

You are thinking of the period from the 50's up through the early 70's, when Japanese manufactured goods were often derivative and cheaply made, before Deming's philosophy had built to its full influence.

Rick "noting that the Japanese now make the most reliable products in almost every category" Denney

[Rick Denney]

I've often wondered why some manufacturers have chosen Monel over conventional brass valves with brass crossports. There has to be a manufacturing advantage to the use of Monel. Having been involved in manufacturing for over 35 years, I've never once heard management or the Board of Directors say "hey guys... let's figure out a way to use a more expensive material that's more difficult to work without increasing the cost".

I suspect Ken is right and it's to avoid a complicated plating process. All piston valves are now made of stainless material that is no easier or cheaper than Monel, so Yamaha isn't exactly out in left field with its choice. Boosey and Hawkes has also used Monel for decades, and since Yamaha was initially copying them, they might have decided to follow suit.

Rick "thinking investment casting of pistons is an interesting idea, though" Denney

[TUbajohn20J]

Rick "noting that the Japanese now make the most reliable products in almost every category" Denney

except for brass instruments!

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Rick "noting that the Japanese now make the most reliable products in almost every category" Denney

except for brass instruments!

Wow. I guess you're not convinced that you don't have an educated opinion yet, eh?

Why would I put any confidence in the opinion of someone who, by his own admission, has an extremely limited experience on which to draw? You've played on four school-owned rotary YBB-641s...the bottom end of Yamaha's professional line. Basing your opinion of ALL Yamaha tubas on that experience is like saying Ford trucks all suck because you had a used Ranger that drove like a rock.

I played a YCB-822S with piston valves in graduate school and learned F tuba on a colleague's YFB-822 (also a piston valve tuba). They were both excellent instruments with well-in-tune scales, great response, and exceptional valves. They both sounded like "me," but maybe I'm cursed with the dreaded "dead sound" you speak of. I also played a Yamaha fiberglass sousaphone in the Disney band in Orlando - an instrument that far exceeded my expectations and former experiences with fiberglass sousaphones (btw TubaJohn...how do you know that you can't play without blatting above forte on a Yamaha sousaphone if you have never played one?). I've played a few other Yamaha tubas at conventions, including rotary models that I found to be adequate.

Will all that experience, I wouldn't have the gall to post on this thread that "Yamaha tubas=GOOD." Your post was ill-conceived and unhelpful to the OP (who asked a specific question).

To the OP: No, the Yamaha tubas do not have a "dead" sound (whatever that means...it's an exceptionally subjective measure). I think this list of Yamaha tuba performing artists might help convince you otherwise. In any case, an e-mailed question directly to any of them just might give you a more intelligent opinion than one offered by someone who's played bad examples of ONE model of that manufacturer's tubas.

I'm no Yamaha cheerleader, but this thread really pegged my BS meter.

Todd "who, unlike some, understands the difference between an opinion and a feeling" S. Malicoate

[TUbajohn20J]

I stand by my opinion. AGAIN, it's an OPINION people. But apparently Yamaha does make some good tuba models judging by this feedback I'm getting. Some advice I can give to the OP is do NOT buy a Yamaha 641 BBb. They have some nerve calling this a professional horn. I simply frown upon Yamaha because everytime I think about Yamaha tubas, I think of the 641. By the way, I have played a Yamaha brass sousaphone my college borrowed last season. I guess I forgot to mention that, but that's why I said they cannot play above forte without sounding "nasty". The Conn 20k's play so much better. These are just my experiences. Sorry if I came off as harsh and ignorant of which I am neither, but it's hard to speak on here without offending people. No hard feelings Todd and Rick

[Rick Denney]

Sorry if I came off as harsh and ignorant of which I am neither, but it's hard to speak on here without offending people. No hard feelings Todd and Rick

My feelings have no role in this discussion, but I appreciate your concern for them.

Hard not to offend people? Given enough time, yes, that's true. But you didn't offend me, you offended the definition of "opinion", and you also risked offending everyone who has played Yamaha tubas at a higher level than you suggest is possible. Here's a secret about Tubenet: You might have offended a future teacher.

Here's a hint, respectfully submitted for your consideration: Try not to say things that you do not personally know to be true, or that you have not personally experienced. You don't even know that 641's are bad. You just know you don't like them. Fair enough. Say that. "I don't know about most Yamahas, but I didn't like the 641s I played, and I preferred the 20K over the Yamaha sousaphone." That would have offended nobody, and it really would have been an opinion. It might have even added a useful bit of data for the OP.

Rick "who will now be accused of being mean" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Ditto Rick. I'm not offended, either, just annoyed at the "Yamaha tubas=BAD" post. That doesn't sound like an opinion and when the OP asked you to expand on the offering you gave your points for consideration and the extra information the first post needed badly.

I don't like B&S F tubas based on the one I played for a while, but I wouldn't hesitate to play/evaluate one if I was "in the market" for an F. I might offer to a poster here my bad experience, but I would temper that opinion with a caveat that they decide for themselves based on the instrument in their lap (since that instrument would, almost surely, be a different one that the one that once grazed mine).

No hard feelings here...just clarification of thought.

Todd, zen-ish

[EdFirth]

I played on a rotary Yamaha built in the 70's while in New Orleans. I think they are actually a copy of a Meinl Weston. The sound was fine. I used it on a PBS Pete Fountain special and was happily suprised. There were issues for me though. It was very sharp and although the valves were smooth, they were slow and felt heavy.Later, in the 80's Yamaha wanted to be the official instrument of Walt Disney World so we were all given the Yamaha of our choosing to use. I asked for a bell front and was informed that they didn't make one so they gave me the rotary Bb and it was just like the one I had before. Solid horn that was very sharp(they called it European tuning) and sluggish valves. They weren't very interested in feedback. They just wanted them out in the public eye and the only time I used it was during the Candlelight event when it was only two nights in the Majic Kingdom. It was so cold that I couldn't lip my King up to the organ but that sharp Yamaha was just perfect.I think their stuff is very well constructed and the input of people like Chris Olka, who they listen to, will eventually correct the little problems. For whatever it's worth. Ed

[peter birch]

I played on a rotary Yamaha built in the 70's while in New Orleans. I think they are actually a copy of a Meinl Weston. The sound was fine.... Solid horn that was very sharp(they called it European tuning) and sluggish valves. They weren't very interested in feedback.... Ed

It may be a generalisation, and actually things might have changed, but Japanese industrial giants are very good at copying things, and maybe even improving the quality of a product, but not so good at innovating. So that the instruments that are "copies" of MW's or Bessons are likely to be improvements, but original instruments may be probelmatic.