TubaTinker wrote:I've often wondered why some manufacturers have chosen Monel over conventional brass valves with brass crossports. There has to be a manufacturing advantage to the use of Monel. Having been involved in manufacturing for over 35 years, I've never once heard management or the Board of Directors say "hey guys... let's figure out a way to use a more expensive material that's more difficult to work without increasing the cost".
I suspect Ken is right and it's to avoid a complicated plating process. All piston valves are now made of stainless material that is no easier or cheaper than Monel, so Yamaha isn't exactly out in left field with its choice. Boosey and Hawkes has also used Monel for decades, and since Yamaha was initially copying them, they might have decided to follow suit.
Rick "thinking investment casting of pistons is an interesting idea, though" Denney
Rick Denney wrote:
Rick "noting that the Japanese now make the most reliable products in almost every category" Denney
except for brass instruments!
Wow. I guess you're not convinced that you don't have an educated opinion yet, eh?
Why would I put any confidence in the opinion of someone who, by his own admission, has an extremely limited experience on which to draw? You've played on four school-owned rotary YBB-641s...the bottom end of Yamaha's professional line. Basing your opinion of ALL Yamaha tubas on that experience is like saying Ford trucks all suck because you had a used Ranger that drove like a rock.
I played a YCB-822S with piston valves in graduate school and learned F tuba on a colleague's YFB-822 (also a piston valve tuba). They were both excellent instruments with well-in-tune scales, great response, and exceptional valves. They both sounded like "me," but maybe I'm cursed with the dreaded "dead sound" you speak of. I also played a Yamaha fiberglass sousaphone in the Disney band in Orlando - an instrument that far exceeded my expectations and former experiences with fiberglass sousaphones (btw TubaJohn...how do you know that you can't play without blatting above forte on a Yamaha sousaphone if you have never played one?). I've played a few other Yamaha tubas at conventions, including rotary models that I found to be adequate.
Will all that experience, I wouldn't have the gall to post on this thread that "Yamaha tubas=GOOD." Your post was ill-conceived and unhelpful to the OP (who asked a specific question).
To the OP: No, the Yamaha tubas do not have a "dead" sound (whatever that means...it's an exceptionally subjective measure). I think this list of Yamaha tuba performing artists might help convince you otherwise. In any case, an e-mailed question directly to any of them just might give you a more intelligent opinion than one offered by someone who's played bad examples of ONE model of that manufacturer's tubas.
I'm no Yamaha cheerleader, but this thread really pegged my BS meter.
Todd "who, unlike some, understands the difference between an opinion and a feeling" S. Malicoate
I stand by my opinion. AGAIN, it's an OPINION people. But apparently Yamaha does make some good tuba models judging by this feedback I'm getting. Some advice I can give to the OP is do NOT buy a Yamaha 641 BBb. They have some nerve calling this a professional horn. I simply frown upon Yamaha because everytime I think about Yamaha tubas, I think of the 641. By the way, I have played a Yamaha brass sousaphone my college borrowed last season. I guess I forgot to mention that, but that's why I said they cannot play above forte without sounding "nasty". The Conn 20k's play so much better. These are just my experiences. Sorry if I came off as harsh and ignorant of which I am neither, but it's hard to speak on here without offending people. No hard feelings Todd and Rick
TUbajohn20J wrote:Sorry if I came off as harsh and ignorant of which I am neither, but it's hard to speak on here without offending people. No hard feelings Todd and Rick
My feelings have no role in this discussion, but I appreciate your concern for them.
Hard not to offend people? Given enough time, yes, that's true. But you didn't offend me, you offended the definition of "opinion", and you also risked offending everyone who has played Yamaha tubas at a higher level than you suggest is possible. Here's a secret about Tubenet: You might have offended a future teacher.
Here's a hint, respectfully submitted for your consideration: Try not to say things that you do not personally know to be true, or that you have not personally experienced. You don't even know that 641's are bad. You just know you don't like them. Fair enough. Say that. "I don't know about most Yamahas, but I didn't like the 641s I played, and I preferred the 20K over the Yamaha sousaphone." That would have offended nobody, and it really would have been an opinion. It might have even added a useful bit of data for the OP.
Rick "who will now be accused of being mean" Denney
Ditto Rick. I'm not offended, either, just annoyed at the "Yamaha tubas=BAD" post. That doesn't sound like an opinion and when the OP asked you to expand on the offering you gave your points for consideration and the extra information the first post needed badly.
I don't like B&S F tubas based on the one I played for a while, but I wouldn't hesitate to play/evaluate one if I was "in the market" for an F. I might offer to a poster here my bad experience, but I would temper that opinion with a caveat that they decide for themselves based on the instrument in their lap (since that instrument would, almost surely, be a different one that the one that once grazed mine).
No hard feelings here...just clarification of thought.
I played on a rotary Yamaha built in the 70's while in New Orleans. I think they are actually a copy of a Meinl Weston. The sound was fine. I used it on a PBS Pete Fountain special and was happily suprised. There were issues for me though. It was very sharp and although the valves were smooth, they were slow and felt heavy.Later, in the 80's Yamaha wanted to be the official instrument of Walt Disney World so we were all given the Yamaha of our choosing to use. I asked for a bell front and was informed that they didn't make one so they gave me the rotary Bb and it was just like the one I had before. Solid horn that was very sharp(they called it European tuning) and sluggish valves. They weren't very interested in feedback. They just wanted them out in the public eye and the only time I used it was during the Candlelight event when it was only two nights in the Majic Kingdom. It was so cold that I couldn't lip my King up to the organ but that sharp Yamaha was just perfect.I think their stuff is very well constructed and the input of people like Chris Olka, who they listen to, will eventually correct the little problems. For whatever it's worth. Ed
EdFirth wrote:I played on a rotary Yamaha built in the 70's while in New Orleans. I think they are actually a copy of a Meinl Weston. The sound was fine.... Solid horn that was very sharp(they called it European tuning) and sluggish valves. They weren't very interested in feedback.... Ed
It may be a generalisation, and actually things might have changed, but Japanese industrial giants are very good at copying things, and maybe even improving the quality of a product, but not so good at innovating. So that the instruments that are "copies" of MW's or Bessons are likely to be improvements, but original instruments may be probelmatic.
I personally love my little yfb-821, but I was lucky enough to find a Yamaha I liked. I have played many Yamahas both as a player looking for a horn and as a teacher looking for school horns. I think whether Yamaha is good or bad depends on the player. Every player has different likes and dislikes, and we have a selection of tubas to choose from. I presonally feel you should play on the horn you sound best on, and not worry about the label. I am sure we could list many pro players who performed on several different brands through their careers, but still sounded good. As for quality, if you would of asked 10-15 years ago, I would of said they were shody and poorly made, but I think they are well constructed and deserve serious consideration. That being said, there are always one or two lemons that slip out in any company. This is why it is important to play the horn before purchasing.
The Yamaha YBB-103 is also one of my favorite tubas. It looks like a crummy peashooter 3/4 for kids, but its performance far exceeds its handy compact size--and it's so user-friendly. Truly a play-all-day horn. I wish Yamaha would have kept the 103 in production, and developed a 103-based line of compact front-action tubas. A four- or five-valve 103 variant in silverplate? Build it, Yamaha, and I'll buy one!
The student model yamaha tubas we have (not sure on the specifics) sound pretty bad. It just sounds too light. Not much help without the specific model, but just throwing in some input.
Big corporations have slow learning curves, but Yamaha has shown a willingness to learn from their mistakes. In 1971, I was in graduate school at NTSU (now Univ of N. Texas), and Yamaha was introducing their first pass at making a tuba. It was a top-action piston valve BBb, modeled on the classic Besson. They sent one to us to try out, and give feedback. It was a clumsy instrument, built like a tank, but the biggest problem was, for someone 6'1", the mouthpiece went squarely to the forehead. It was unplayable for adults, let alone middle-school students (I suppose you could sit on a phone book, but at 26, I felt self-conscious). We told them, and they fixed that.
In the 80s I was teaching at SMU in Dallas, and we had a rotary valve BBb. It also had problems; I thought the sound was cold, and the pitch on top-space G was almost 1/2 step sharp. aarrgghh!! I can't speak to later models, but my sense is that they fixed that later, as I have not heard about that problem for many years.
I now play a YFB-822, and love it. Having previously played F tubas by Besson, Alexander, Sanders, and M-W, I can say that this one, with the right mouthpiece, is the best F tuba I have ever played. The valves are quite and fast (I have hand-lapped them), the tuning is exceptional, it is free-blowing in all registers, the low range is great, and the sound has a lot of presence and "meat". Construction, finish, and feel are solid. I can bounce a pedal D off the walls with no effort.
Granted, it does not have the sweet, lyrical German sound that many want, but I do not want that. For my purposes, I would rather it play like a small CC with an exceptional high range, and it does that very well.
I have also owned a YCB-621, which had an astonishingly fat, splatty sound, and a very compact, focused sound (depending on how you played it), but the valve angle didn't work for me.
My general sense is that the rotary valve tubas are more pointed toward the student market, and some of the piston valve models more toward the professional market, based partly on what the Yamaha artists are playing, but then, I haven't played a rotary model in a long time. I think it is fair to say that the Yamaha tubas are consistent, well-made, quality instruments, but, you get what you pay for.
I personally would not hesitate to recommend the Yamaha F tubas, but each player needs to find his own voice.
Dr. Sandy Keathley
Sandy Keathley, DMA https://mckinneyfirearmstraining.com
Yamaha YFB-822S F
Gnagey Holton/King CC
Gone but not forgotten: Alexander 163 CC 5V, Mirafone 186-5U CC, Nirschl 5/4 CC
skeath wrote:Big corporations have slow learning curves, but Yamaha has shown a willingness to learn from their mistakes. In 1971, I was in graduate school at NTSU (now Univ of N. Texas), and Yamaha was introducing their first pass at making a tuba. It was a top-action piston valve BBb, modeled on the classic Besson. They sent one to us to try out, and give feedback. It was a clumsy instrument, built like a tank, but the biggest problem was, for someone 6'1", the mouthpiece went squarely to the forehead. It was unplayable for adults, let alone middle-school students (I suppose you could sit on a phone book, but at 26, I felt self-conscious). We told them, and they fixed that.
In the 80s I was teaching at SMU in Dallas, and we had a rotary valve BBb. It also had problems; I thought the sound was cold, and the pitch on top-space G was almost 1/2 step sharp. aarrgghh!! I can't speak to later models, but my sense is that they fixed that later, as I have not heard about that problem for many years.
Proverbs 13:18
Poverty and shame will come to him who disdains correction, But he who regards a rebuke will be honored.
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Willson 3050 Bb
Meinl Weston 451S euphonium
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