Death of the American CC tuba

[jtuba]

I've heard from a very reliable source that Conn is no longer making the 5xJ series CC tuba. A sad day indeed.

[bort]

For the price (new), there are other tubas I like better.
For the price (used), I think they are good options.

Are Conn/King themselves in trouble? Or just discontinuing this line to stay out of trouble?

[iiipopes]

Speculation: priced themselves out of the market for what it is.

[jonesbrass]

Honestly, I'm not suprised. Our US-made CC's didn't seem to be appreciated. The reviews I've read for the Conn here on TubeNet have been less than stellar (to put it nicely) and the Holton seemed dead on arrival. The Getzen/Canadian Brass tuba has a loyal following, but was that horn even made in the US?
Some in our community seem to chase after the horn du jour, usually coming out of Europe or Japan, spend in excess of $10-$20 grand, where the manufacturers seem more willing to invest R&D into developing new horns every so often. The paradigm here seems a little different: build lots of student-line horns, and continue to produce the well-known pro horns of yesteryear for the advanced players and students.
If this is true, what a shame. I liked the Conn CC's.

[wonderbread403]

I guess our hopes will lie with Lee Stofer and Kanstul. According to this post (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=36083), Lee is working on a York reproduction with Kanstul.

[iiipopes]

For years I have decried the dearth of a good moderate bore 4/4 or 5/4 American tuba. And I believe the above is right on point: reticence of manufacturers to invest the necessary R&D to get there.

If I were a CC piston valve player, the 4/4 Nirschl that I played when Jeff Rideout came through town last year impressed me, with its moderate bore, good intonation and consistency, and "American" flare bell that admittedly has the York as its inspiration. The next closest item to an "American" style 4/4 is the Besson 995, which is basically the same horn.

Yes, as American tuba players, we are in a low state right now, with nobody manufacturing a new CC of any kind. But it goes beyond even that. Until Kanstul gets these new prototypes up and running, the only real 4/4 tuba of any kind left is the King, or possibly the current Kanstul, which even though advertised as a 5/4, still has the same .687 primary bore, and not counting sousaphones, and not counting small bore horns that have a 17-18 inch bell or so grafted onto them.

What would I like to see: something about half-way between a King 1241 and a Conn 24/25/26J in bore and bell size, front valves, in both CC and BBb versions, like King used to make at one point, that I believe would be a very versatile tuba.

In the meantime, Sam Gnagny is still making some fine instruments!

[Ferguson]

American CC tubas live. I was at Kanstul the day they were testing the new bell mandrel for the 4/4 tubas. Kanstul hopes to show four new models at the NAMM show in Anaheim, CA, in 3 weeks: BBb, CC, Eb. Most will be front piston (+1 rotor), with one model (BBb?) available in top piston as well. I played the BBb a little bit. Trust me, you'll be totally floored by the sound. Pricing on these new tubas isn't set yet, but I did hear murmurings of a street price around $6K including SKB hard case.

Best,

Ferguson

[UTSAtuba]

This new Kanstul line sounds very promising. If the price is around $6K, that sounds like a pretty good deal.

Joseph

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I did hear that Conn was thinking about making a 'new' CC tuba--but $$ is limited. The factory has all the old Holton mandrels--incl. those for the old CC/BBb 345 models.

When everything is blamed on the workers in US manufacturing and nothing is mentioned of executive salaries/compensation packages AND of the quality of product AND you have UnFair trade agreements, it is a recipe for disaster.

The Kanstul tuba looks interesting--I hope they have the CC prototype at the Army Tuba Conference or send it to Lee so he can bring it there. If Lee is involved, I am sure it will be a very fine horn--so at least we have one North American CC piston tuba, and of course the W. Nirschl/Gemstone German/Brazil/South American BBb and CC piston tuba. If these CC tubas play great and are priced great (I know the W. Nirschl will be--if the CC is anything like the BBb), it will be great for American tubists, and bad news for European/Japanese tuba manufactures.

Now if Kanstul and/or W. Nirschl/Gemstone can make a super piston (or rotary) F tuba that plays great in all ranges and has excellent intonation-at a great price....before the Chinese do it....

Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

[bort]

Are people outside of the US (currently? historically?) interested in American-built tubas? (American-style sure, but American-bulit?) That seems to be a problem, we're not reaching much of the global market...

[Bob Kolada]

Now if Kanstul and/or W. Nirschl/Gemstone can make a super piston (or rotary) F tuba that plays great in all ranges and has excellent intonation-at a great price....before the Chinese do it....

Though not a piston horn, anyone played this $3700 F?
http://www.tubamm.com/site/big/mm-tu600.htm

[jtuba]

Maybe I'm a bit pessimistic when it comes to Kanstul, but haven't we been waiting for a long time for them to figure out that 3/4 CC tuba? Last time I saw it, it was still a screw bell tuba that IMO didn't play very well. I'll believe it when I see one that plays as well as some of the Conn 5xJs could.

[Dan Schultz]

I've heard from a very reliable source that Conn is no longer making the 5xJ series CC tuba. ....

In keeping with the Conn/Selmer/Steinway/UMI/etc./etc. evolution... that comes as no surprise to me. Lots of old Conn models have fallen by the wayside in favor of plodding along under the old King models. C-S won't be content until ALL of the old American models are gone.

[iiipopes]

I will await patiently the new Kanstul tubas, and hope they live up to expectations.

One problem from the beginning of the Conn 5XJ series is that they were cobbled together from King BBb parts, reworked to CC and the 5th valve added, along with the choice of bells and bugles, which themselves were recycled from pre-war designs.

And I am glad that instead of cobbling the current models, that Kanstul actually seems to be taking the time to really develop new models of tubas, even if the bells are based on York. But after all, why tinker too much with perfection?

And as far as any export market for an American tuba, we'll just have to see. Sousaphones seem to have a niche market overseas, but it will be hard to break into areas so dominated by their respective domestic models.

[EdFirth]

I played the prototype BBb top action(based on a York that I owned and played alot) My York was an "if only" horn. GREAT sound, some wierd notes, really beat to death. The Kanstul is the answer to "if only". When you people play it you will be amazed at the sound, the response, and the intonation.It will be available with front action valves in C and Eb also. The "York brass" bell is a big factor but he also did the tapers etc, of the York. On the original topic, I wonder how it is that the US being probably the biggest market for C tubas hasn't warrented a US company doing what Mr Kanstul has done until now. The Germans certainly want to sell tubas here. Meinl Weston keeps cranking out new models along with Mirafone. If the market is there, and it seems to be, what's stopping them? I do have a kind of theory that the US companies are just being smart businessmen by catering to the school market which is enormous and non judgemental rather than deal with pros and especially annoying semi pros who want a majic wand and are next to impossible to please.I think that these Kanstul horns are going to make everyone very happy. He also may be considering a "Jake York" C down the road. Ed

[MartyNeilan]

He also may be considering a "Jake York" C down the road. Ed

Go Zig!!!!

[jonesbrass]

Mr. Kanstul, show us the brass . . .

Actually, I'd love to have a 4/4 American CC.

[WakinAZ]

... I was at Kanstul the day they were testing the new bell mandrel for the 4/4 tubas. ...

Steve,

Do you know what the bore size will be? The tried-and-true .687" or something else?

Thanks,
Eric

[Roger Lewis]

I wouldn't count Conn Selmer out of the tuba business just yet.

Just my impession.

Roger

[Bob Kolada]

... I was at Kanstul the day they were testing the new bell mandrel for the 4/4 tubas. ...

Steve,

Do you know what the bore size will be? The tried-and-true .687" or something else?

Thanks,
Eric

From what Lee Stofer said on here about a smaller bore, I am thinking they might be in .656 (weren't the original York 4/4's in that?).