1920's H.N.White King CC Tuba

[Frank Ortega]

What key is that giant fench horn in? Does it play in tune? I have always thought about a project to make a piston F helicon from Eb sousa parts, but haven't had the spare cash for the project. Yet...

Frank

[Timswisstuba]

What key is that giant fench horn in? Does it play in tune? I have always thought about a project to make a piston F helicon from Eb sousa parts, but haven't had the spare cash for the project. Yet...

Frank

It's a single contrabass horn in Eb. Making a double horn would have been really complicated. The original idea was to have it in F but it's really difficult cutting a tapered circle and maintaining the circle. Plus it plays really well and in-tune in Eb so why change something that works.

I hope to make a separate thread on this subject soon.

[Wyvern]

I hope to make a separate thread on this subject soon.

That will be very interesting Tim! I was thinking, the horn must be difficult to hold - heavy?

[hbcrandy]

From the mid 1980's throught the mid 1990's, I owned a 5-piston valved H. N White, King CC tuba that was made for and played by Fred Geib. i got it from Warren Deck. The tuba was gold plated. It had a 5th piston, just past #4 valve that stuck out of the side of the tuba and was operated by the left hand. The tuba was a Sander fingering system with, what we know as the #4 valve, operated by the right-hand pinkie finger providing a 2 & 3 valve combination. The side-action 5th valve gave the downward perfect 4th. The tuba came with both a recording and an upright bell. The bore of the valve plumbing was .750". It was a great tuba. The only reason that I parted with it was that the position of the valves gave me intense pain in the right hand. The tuba is now in the collection of Mike Lynch in Texas. About a year ago, Dan Oberloh had a four-valve version of my former tuba in his shop, for sale.

[sloan]

...and to think of all of the EEb contrasousahorn gigs I've had to turn down...

bloke "Didn't Mahler score for one...' maybe in the Symphony of 1001...??"

Those who live in glass houses (with gold glitter sprinkles) should not throw stones!

[J.c. Sherman]

Truly, from here in the home of H.N. White, it looks suspect. The leadpipe, the tuning slide not looped before the valve section, the larger bell diameter... it's suspect to me. Regardless, a CC King is a treasure (as it's more elegant than the 5XJ Conns, which are chopped Kings anyway).

J.c.

[EdFirth]

I owned an original King four piston CC in the late eighties.The guy I got it from bought it from Bill Rose. It had both bells and hard cases that said Goldman Band on them. But it was different from the one in the picture in that it had the tuning in the leadpipe. After the reciever it went up to a crook with sleeves like a trombone slide then down to a conventional tuning slide crook then into the valves. The horn in the pic may have also had this a t one time as when I sold it there was a conventional pipe on it and it was converted to tuning after the valve set. It had a great sound and the pitch was like any other BBb detatchable King I have ever played. In fact, I traded to Steve Dillon so one of you out there probably has it. There was a little silver left on it and the replacement leadpipe did have an unusual extra bend to help make up for the lost original length.The cases and bell front got lost at the guyI bought it from's house. And the raincatcher was 20 inches, the only one I've ever seen. Now I have aKing rotary BBb that we're nursing back to health. Gotta love the sound of those old Kings. Ed

[Timswisstuba]

Truly, from here in the home of H.N. White, it looks suspect. The leadpipe, the tuning slide not looped before the valve section, the larger bell diameter... it's suspect to me. Regardless, a CC King is a treasure (as it's more elegant than the 5XJ Conns, which are chopped Kings anyway.

J.c.

Here's a better picture of the looped tuning slide leadpipe.

When I bought the horn it came only with the bell-front. I was fortunate enough to already have an upright bell which fit perfectly in terms of tenon size and which did not change the pitch.

Mr. Sherman, You're free to respectifully disagree with me but if you come to the land of Hirsbrunner and Willson and see the horn in person, you can make an honest judgement of the horn. I will always welcome anyone who appreciates fine tubas.

What is more important is how it plays. Like syncopation, I too like like it much better than my rotary King. I have been reluctant to show my collection on the internet because I don't feel the need to brag about my instruments.

[EdFirth]

Your horn is the same model that I had. The master tuner before the leadpipe tuning slide has been replaced with what looks like a regular King leadpipe and the extra lenght is in the tuning slide after the valve set.There can't be many of theses around. The master tuner in the leadpipe was a great idea but they probably started to leak over time. Great horn! Ed

[Timswisstuba]

Your horn is the same model that I had. The master tuner before the leadpipe tuning slide has been replaced with what looks like a regular King leadpipe and the extra lenght is in the tuning slide after the valve set.There can't be many of theses around. The master tuner in the leadpipe was a great idea but they probably started to leak over time. Great horn! Ed

Hi Ed,
Yes, I believe that this was your horn. I bought it at Dillons...

[J.c. Sherman]

No disrespect offered, Tim, just an impression. There are numerous odd-ball King/H.N. White Tubas out here, and this one has some items which are unique. I'm sorry if offering an opinion or impression was hurtful or disrespectful.

[Timswisstuba]

Hello Timswisstuba:

Yes, in these two photos your tuba looks very much like the original King CC I encountered in the '80s.

How is the middle "G" on it? The one I tried (if I'm remembering correctly) was slightly flat.

On my rotary-valve King CC (built 1939) the open "G" is very bad. I have to use 1-3 combination for it. I've been experimenting (off and on) with this pitch problem for many years, changing leadpipes and tuning slide tapers, etc, etc. Eventually I hope to stumble onto a solution for a decent open "G."

There were a lot of unusual and custom "King" tubas in New York, as in the 1920s/'30s/'40s/'50s that city was a hub of recording and Network radio and there were a lot of GREAT tuba players around. In the 1950s the late Don Butterfield played a .750 bore rotary-valve CC "King" tuba - the so called "Monster Model." (This was a bigger instrument than the .687 King CC's that you see in old Bill Bell and Torchinsky photos.) Don had several photos on his studio wall of himself playing that big CC tuba, and when I asked him about it, he said he "hated it," recalling it as the cause of "The unhappiest playing years of my life!" I don't know what ever became of that horn...the BBb versions of that "Monster Model" are great though. I have one and love it.

Yes, The open G is flat on my King CC. I have to lip it up. I think making a straight leadpipe would help solve the intonation problems.

I think Don Butterfield just hated CC tubas in general. I grew up in Connecticut outside NYC and played in Alan Raph's Danbury Brass Band. Don went on tour to Australia with them and said, "having a CC tuba in Brass Band is more work because when the whole band around you is playing an open Bb you've got to work harder by pressing down the first valve"...

He was a great player and I have a lot of respect for the NYC musicians of that era. I'm continuing their tradition with this CC KIng in Switzerland.

Tim Sullivan

[Bob Kolada]

Yes, The open G is flat on my King CC. I have to lip it up. I think making a straight leadpipe would help solve the intonation problems.

Tim, have you considered flipping the leadpipe tuning slide?

[Timswisstuba]

Tim, have you considered flipping the leadpipe tuning slide?

I did try flipping the slides and the intonation stayed the same. When I bought the horn, I knew the intonation wasn’t perfect and I accepted that because I know this is a common characteristic trait of horns of this vintage.
However the sound on this horn is just amazing !

[Bob Kolada]

Tim, have you considered flipping the leadpipe tuning slide?

I did try flipping the slides and the intonation stayed the same.

I meant so you could use it for funny open notes.

[pigman]

It looks legit. I had one of those many years ago. Factory original. Slightly larger bore than the common BB. intonation was funky bu it had a nice american sound. Mine was a .750 bore I believe it was sold a s a Jumbo . I had the original bell which was smaller . maybe 20" and a little shorter than the 23 BBb verison"

ray