Looking for a 6/4 American Bb BAT

[Ken Herrick]

Your location would make it more difficult to try and compare different horns. IF you could come across one of the old King 4 rotary valve "Monster" BBb fixed upright bell models I suspect you would like it. I once had occassion to compare my King with the big Conns and Holton and I, and those listening, all went for what came out of the King. They are fairly rare but the last I saw for sale went for only a little more than a Conn and far less than the Holton.

[b.williams]

How does the low/4th valve range compare between the King 1241 and the Conn 24J?

[Rick Denney]

Your location would make it more difficult to try and compare different horns. IF you could come across one of the old King 4 rotary valve "Monster" BBb fixed upright bell models I suspect you would like it. I once had occassion to compare my King with the big Conns and Holton and I, and those listening, all went for what came out of the King. They are fairly rare but the last I saw for sale went for only a little more than a Conn and far less than the Holton.

Yes, I agree with the praise of one of those old King 1235's (rotary kaiser-size tubas with 3/4" bore). The one I played had some real magic in it.

Roger had emailed me and I have given him my opinions by email long before reading this thread (I've been out-of-touch with the Internet for a couple of weeks). The Conn is the most available and the least expensive option, and the Martin is the least available and most expensive option. The Holton sits in the middle. There are no Bb Yorks of the same shape and general dimensions as the Jacobs/CSO C York, and there were only two of those (except for the third, which is buried in my back yard).

Of these, the Holton was built for the same reason that Rusk was converting old top-action Yorks: Before the Yorkbrunner, there were simply no other other choices for those who wanted to play an American-style grand orchestral tuba pitched in C, except for quite rare examples of old Conn Orchestra Grand Basses or one of the Kings mentioned above. Most of those were in Bb and even those are now quite rare.

But the Holtons were made starting in the 50's and up through the very early 70's so they are only half a century old rather than 3/4 of a century, as with the pre-war Conns and Kings. They were not particularly well-made, but when restored to good mechanical integrity they often play really well, especially the Bb version. They do not have to be restored to far-better-than-new status at a price exceeding a Gronitz PBK that might be a worthy adversary in any case. Mine certainly does not hide its checkered past, but there's one thing about a well-used tuba: It was good enough to be worth well-using. That is not the case with all old American-made BAT's.

The 20J I had was not the best example of same that I have played. I bought it cheap and sold it cheap. I didn't like its inability to play softly, the extraordinarily flat third partial, the lack of a fourth valve, the forward bell, or the wretched ergonomics (made worse by the fact that I'm nearly blind in my left eye). I have played older and better 2xJ's that didn't have all these problems, but I've never played one that didn't have any of them (even the very best 25J still has that flat third partial). Holtons and other Yorkophones have their own ergonomic issues, and some also have a terribly flat third partial or some other intonation issue. My Holton, however, has pretty good intonation and I find the ergonomics easier to manage. The 20J made a majestic sound, but a good Holton is in another league when it comes to sound. Very few big tubas can match a good Holton's ability to move earth while maintaining such resonance and color.

Rick "who happily paid twice for a battered old Holton as a much more pristine 25J might have cost" Denney

[TUbajohn20J]

How does the low/4th valve range compare between the King 1241 and the Conn 24J?

The low range on the Conn 2XJ horns exceeds far beyond the 1241's. 20J's have a .773 bore and and 1241's had .687. I've said it before.. but to me the low range on the Conn sounds like the "voice of God" if you will. I can't say if this is true or not because I haven't played both, but a friend of mine has a Conn 20J and a 24J. He says it was a waste of money buying the 24J just for the extra valve, because the pedals/false tones on the 3 valve were BETTER than the pedals on the 4 valve! I can see why he says this because the pedals/false tones on my 20J are dead on and can be played in tune very easily even with loud volume.

[pwhitaker]

The size of the bell is a large component of the efficacy of the horn to produce false or - as they used to be referred to - bell tones. I used a ratty old Elkhart student model sousaphone for 20+ years with a .689 bore at most which cranked out incredible false tones due to the 26" bell it had. My Conn 20J and Holton 6/4 both have ~24" bells and their false tones are slightly better than those on my 5/4 Rudy with its ~20'' bell. The bore on the Rudy is at least .866 while the Conn and Holton are .773 and .750 respectively. Again that's just my opinion FWIW.

[b.williams]

Do you mean that an Eb played using say 1+2+4 on a 24J was not as good as an Eb played as a false tone on a 20J?

[pwhitaker]

Depends on what you mean by good. I used to use the 1-2 false low C on my Miraphone 186 instead of the valved note 1234 because it was more accurate (not sharp) and involved no slide pulling. The same is true for the low Eb on many 4 valve horns - 1-4 is a little sharp and 1-2-4 a little flat, so the open false Eb is easier to get to with no slide pulling. The valved notes have more substance than do the false tones, but most of the audience can't tell the difference.

[TUbajohn20J]

Do you mean that an Eb played using say 1+2+4 on a 24J was not as good as an Eb played as a false tone on a 20J?

Yes, and I agree with what pwitaker said also. In the pedal range... Using open on low Eb, 2 for D, 1 for Db, 1-2 for low C etc..are often more in tune on the 20J's than on 4 valve horns. I've never played a 24J to confirm this but my 20J's false tones are DEAD ON and very easy blowing. If I had the opportunity to buy a 24J to replace the 20J, I would pass it up .....now I have played a Conn 34J (4 top action-long action; predecessor the the 24J) and those pedals were real good if not better than on my 20J but those were completely different horns all together because of the standard stroke valves.

[Bob Kolada]

How would a horn having 3 vs. 4 valves affect pedal Bb, A,.... (unless something's really screwed up!)?

[sloan]

[Roger Fjeldet]

Very nice indeed, but actually not the 6/4`s i`m looking for (at the moment)
A question (actually two) for the 345-players out there:
Which mouthpiece seems to fit the Holton best?
Big or small? - Do you use BAM`s on BAT`s (Thats a good one )?

Roger

[MartyNeilan]

Back on topic...

How would a horn having 3 vs. 4 valves affect pedal Bb, A,.... (unless something's really screwed up!)?

The more valves, the more chance for leaks, misalignment, etc. Not to mention goin through a few additional tight curves even when everything is perfect. Especially with older valves, the fewer valves the air has to pass through (open or closed) the smother the airstream (Just ask any bass trombonist.)

[Ken Herrick]

Back on topic...

How would a horn having 3 vs. 4 valves affect pedal Bb, A,.... (unless something's really screwed up!)?

The more valves, the more chance for leaks, misalignment, etc. Not to mention goin through a few additional tight curves even when everything is perfect. Especially with older valves, the fewer valves the air has to pass through (open or closed) the smother the airstream (Just ask any bass trombonist.)

Marty - you REALLY have missed the point!!!!!

The extra valves are for having more places where you can store BEER or other libations.

[EdFirth]

My first tuba was a Conn 24J. My H.S. owned a Conn 25J. When I joined the Army my band had all 24J's.I have since owned and played on a 34J(top action), and a 1923 Holton 6/4 front action four banger. There are many Martins here in town(6/4) which I've been lucky enough to play on quite a bit and here are my observations for what they're worth. The Conns all have a solid sound and doable pitch. On all but the Grand Orchestral that my friend has the fourth valve is for low C and F and the rest is false tones. Although they are quite good.The Holtons, mine as well as several others here,do have workable pedals and produce a huge sound but not a Jacobs like Dark sound. I don't know if it was the York or ( I suspect) Jake, but they are comparitively bland sounding. My 1923 Holton had the darkest, most colorful sound of all the Holtons I've played. The Martins are consistantly the best sounding/blowing big horns for me.If the valves are in line and there are no huge leaks they are unbelieveable.That being said the drawbacks are that most were 3 valve top bangers, There are some four valve ones but they are few and far betwen. There is one of the Navy band (with the master tuner) ones here.The front action ones that I've played so far look cooler but don't play or sound as good. We had a set of them at the West Point band and they didn't really stand out.So, after this long winded tirade, if you want a great sounding BAT and aren't going to take any auditions, get a Martin Handcraft 3 valve top banger and order a raincatcher from Lee Stofer if you feel you need that.They pop up on the Bay from time to time and there may not be such a thing as a bad one.Ed

[bort]

This tuba belonged to Lenny Jung, a 4v Martin:



REALLY cool tuba, but now it has to spend it's life in a tuba museum in North Carolina.

[bigbob]

I don't see too much mention of the big York CC but today I was lucky enough to play one!! with 4 front pistons and a rotor and it was Great!! such a large sound this is the first BAT that I have been lucky enough to play and never played anything with a 5th rotor(Boy!!~ low notes were so easy) I know now that I can play a bigger horn than my 3J... I told my teacher I wanted one like his!!... He said with a smile they are hard to find... Is that true?? are the other horns mentioned any bigger than the York?? the bottom bow was huge made my 3J look like a midget but wow what a sound..(and I didn't even have to play hard!!) I go to lessons just to hear him play.. I mess up some of my etudes so he'll play them for me on his beautiful horn<s>Is there a place that might have the measurements for the york??He pulled out his slide and that of my 3J and the 3J almost slid in to his<s> What a horn!!! .....................................bigbob

[Rick Denney]

Very nice indeed, but actually not the 6/4`s i`m looking for (at the moment)
A question (actually two) for the 345-players out there:
Which mouthpiece seems to fit the Holton best?
Big or small? - Do you use BAM`s on BAT`s (Thats a good one )?

Roger

The Holtons tend to sound woofy with big, deep funnel mouthpieces. The Revelation 52 mouthpiece that came with it from the factory is a toilet bowl and I call it the Woofmeister. I'm glad I have one only for historical reasons.

I used a PT-48, which is a strong contender in the anti-woof department, without in any way being a small mouthpiece. For that last couple of years, though, I have been using a Stofer Geib, which is an accurate modern reproduction of a vintage Geib mouthpiece. It is more bowl-shaped than the PT-48 (which is sort of a hybrid between a Bach-style bowl and a Helleberg), and it really adds a lot of zip (read: color) to the sound. It is brittle to the point of breaking glass on a Miraphone, however. One does not need a mouthpiece to enhance the breadth of tone on a Holton, and it's better to get a mouthpiece that provides the right kind of useful resistance to improve playability and then relax and let the horn do the work.

There are those who insist that only a smaller Helleberg like the Conn 7B is appropriate for a BAT, but I'm not one of them.

Rick "who doesn't mind tone with a little edge and character in it" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

It is more bowl-shaped than the PT-48 (which is sort of a hybrid between a Bach-style bowl and a Helleberg), and it really adds a lot of zip (read: color) to the sound. It is brittle to the point of breaking glass on a Miraphone, however. One does not need a mouthpiece to enhance the breadth of tone on a Holton, and it's better to get a mouthpiece that provides the right kind of useful resistance to improve playability and then relax and let the horn do the work.

Rick, how different is it from the 48? A little bit, enough, or a lot?

[Rick Denney]

Rick, how different is it from the 48? A little bit, enough, or a lot?

I'm not at home so I can't compare them visually for you. The Geib seems a touch smaller, but it may not actually be. Neither are what I would call small mouthpieces, though they are not the mammoth mouthpieces that some now play. The Doug Elliott T6 that I play on the York Master is bigger, and too big for the Holton in my view.

In terms of how they feel, the Geib has a bit narrower rim.

The Geib provides a little more playability in the upper register, with a bit less in the lower register though this diminished as I got used to it. The sound is not as immediately glorious, but this also changed as I got used to it. The tone is more colorful from the Geib than the PT-48.

I would say that the Geib represents a different archetype than the Helleberg, and the PT-48 is in between, closer to the Geib. Compared to a Helleberg, they are more spacious in the cup but less deep, with more of a rounded bottom.

Another one in the same category worth giving a try is a Laskey 30G.

Rick "and probably a Dillon Geib, too" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

Thanks!