Death of the American CC tuba

[oedipoes]

Are people outside of the US (currently? historically?) interested in American-built tubas? (American-style sure, but American-bulit?)

No. Not really.
'Made in the US' says more to Harley and Mustang fans than to tuba players...
(except for marching brass like good old sousaphones: 38K, 40K etc...)

I wouldn't have any problem playing an American horn if it plays better than any other in the same price-range though!
If Kanstul makes it to the Frankfurt Messe in 2010 I'll be very glad to give it a try !

Wim

[bort]

Hey Wim... what's the resale value of American tubas in Europe like? Expensive, cheap, not enough out there to really tell?

I was in Austria a few years ago for some concerts, and every tuba player I saw had either a rotary BBb or rotary F. Except for one person with a piston BBb, which I never did find out what it was. Looked kind of American, but could've been one of the German tubas they like to sell to Americans.

[Dave Seip]

The Getzen/Canadian Brass tuba has a loyal following, but was that horn even made in the US?

My impression when I was in the factory back when they were still making them was, yes.

Signed,
a loyal follower

[oedipoes]

Hey Wim... what's the resale value of American tubas in Europe like? Expensive, cheap, not enough out there to really tell?

I was in Austria a few years ago for some concerts, and every tuba player I saw had either a rotary BBb or rotary F. Except for one person with a piston BBb, which I never did find out what it was. Looked kind of American, but could've been one of the German tubas they like to sell to Americans.

Yes, Austria and Germany are almost exclusively rotary BBb or F. Only Brass bands seem to use some (very few) piston horns.

Older instruments like old sousaphones do have a high resale value in Europe. I have seen a Conn 40K sousa (in great shape) sell for +/- 3000 - 3500 EUR...
Apparently, there are some fans over here that have enough cash ... (I keep on looking for an affordable conn 20K or similar from the 1950-60's)
The newer models are not popular as I have never seen the recent Conn, King, Kanstul (nobody heard about Kanstul tubas here...) tuba models over here. Although the trombones and french horns of those brands are quite common... Most tubas (for Belgium that is) are Besson and Yamaha, occasionally a Cerveny, Miraphone, Hirsbrunner or Willson.

For the moment, tubas in stock in the US look quite cheap to me.
I have the impression that the euro vs dollar exchange rate has changed quite a bit over the last months.
The willson 3100 FA-5 at the tuba exchange @ 10.795 USD is cheap. It equals 7.535 EUR, where I have been quoted +/- 9200 EUR (including hard case) recently.
That is surprising, because Willsons are produced less than 1000 km away from here.
The one at tuba exchange would not end up much cheaper for me though, because I would have to add taxes, insurance and shipping costs.
So to me, tuba playing appears to be cheaper in the US...

Wim

[Bob Kolada]

The newer models are not popular as I have never seen the recent Conn, King, Kanstul (nobody heard about Kanstul tubas here...) tuba models over here. Although the trombones and french horns of those brands are quite common...

Interestingly enough (or not), I remember reading somewhere that the Kanstul contrabass trombone was/is fairly popular in Europe (what I always thought of as the home of the contrabone!) as even with taxes and such it came/comes out noticeably cheaper than a Thein or the like.
Probably easier to ship a trombone than a tuba too....

[imperialbari]

Eastlake-wise (52-54-56J) I suspect the point at which the decision was made was quite a while back when there were a considerable number of these unsold at the factory that had to be "blown out" to dealers at c. $3XXX. We don't have to think back very far to remember one dealer in particular on eBay who sold a long string of these with very low opening bid amounts.

Was this a matter of a large stock of samples that were either plain bad or at least so much below the quality of the best samples, that no one wanted them at the market price of when the model was first introduced?

If the quality had been consistently at the level of the best samples, would there still have been a market for these models?

Klaus

[oedipoes]

The newer models are not popular as I have never seen the recent Conn, King, Kanstul (nobody heard about Kanstul tubas here...) tuba models over here. Although the trombones and french horns of those brands are quite common...

Interestingly enough (or not), I remember reading somewhere that the Kanstul contrabass trombone was/is fairly popular in Europe (what I always thought of as the home of the contrabone!) as even with taxes and such it came/comes out noticeably cheaper than a Thein or the like.
Probably easier to ship a trombone than a tuba too....

you're not talking very large quantities, I've never seen a contrabass trombone live...

[Barney]

Was this a matter of a large stock of samples that were either plain bad or at least so much below the quality of the best samples, that no one wanted them at the market price of when the model was first introduced?

When the 5xJ models came out, they were priced enough under the Getzen G-50 to grab a sizeable share of that market, a small enough market that the G-50 was soon discontinued. Once the G-50 was out of the way, I recall that the price on the Conns seemed to shoot up to the level of its next perceived competitors (MW 2145 and similar). In my opinion, as a "budget" CC tuba, the 5xJ had a niche. When they raised the price, the Conns were doomed.

As for quality, the 5xJ, was always suspect. The original design was compromised in production, leaving huge bore gaps and other issues that affected playability. Although these instruments had their fans, even the best examples were far from what UMI could have produced. When the mandate is to make an instrument using pre-existing BBb parts, something is bound to suffer. (Just as the new 62H bass trombone suffered when every pro they consulted recommended in-slide tuning, and Conn completely ignored them.)

If UMI is willing to do it right, I'm sure they are capable of making a fantastic instrument. Rumors of a new tuba model have circulated for quite awhile now. I'll believe it when I see it.

I have higher hopes regarding the Kanstul. I know Zig Kanstul always consults pros in the development of new professional models, and actually listens to them! I'm sure many LA pros will have a go at the new tuba and steer Zig in the right direction, if needed.

The timing is right for a new 4/4 CC. As much as I love the Thor, 1291, etc., there is definitely a lack of a 4/4 that plays at that level. Make one, and I'll be first in line.

[J.c. Sherman]

Miss my 52J sometimes... miss my King Monster rotory BBb more.

For a country which has made some of the most coveted tubas on earth (York 6/4), we have a lousy track record of continuing those successes.

Speaking with friends at C-S, I think the 5xJ tubas aren't gone, but don't look for them to improve any. The Holton's are probably gone (I liked 'em, but could never find 'em for sale when I was looking... and the lack of a 5th killed them in the modern market). I would write them off of ever offering another CC for at least a decade... maybe forever. They had a very nice prototype F - you'll never see that either.

King really had great rotory horns, and promptly forgot how good they were. And their valves for a while on their current BBbs and the 52J I had took forever to adjust into not sticking.

I hope Kanstul gets into the game. I would love a front-valve Eb of York inspiration. I really think there should be a factory American professional instrument; I hope he gets it done!

J.c.S.

[bigbob]

I went to the C-S site and they don't have a 5xJ advertised. does anyone have specs on this horn and pictures?? also I'm wishing everyone a very HAPPY NEW YEAR!!...........BB

[Barney]

I went to the C-S site and they don't have a 5xJ advertised. does anyone have specs on this horn and pictures?? also I'm wishing everyone a very HAPPY NEW YEAR!!...........BB

bigbob,

Because the 52J, 54J and 56J are all the same tuba except with different bell sizes (18", 19" or 20"), it is common to replace the second digit with an x. If you don't have that information, this model WOULD be hard to find. It's still on the Conn website, and at retailers like Baltimore Brass.

Happy New Year,

[bigbob]

Thanks Barney!!! I didn't know that!!No wonder My searches never Pan out<s>...........................................bigbob

[J.c. Sherman]

I went to the C-S site and they don't have a 5xJ advertised. does anyone have specs on this horn and pictures?? also I'm wishing everyone a very HAPPY NEW YEAR!!...........BB

They are basically King 2341 BBbs with a Dillon-style chop job. Larger plumbing is attached to the 4th valve, but the bore in the fourth valve itself is still .689. Bell diameters were 18,19, and 20 inches (52,54,56Js)

Don't get me wrong; they are nice chop jobs. But thery were not ground-up designs, and thus not really worth the money they eventually charged. Too bad - they once had true CCs in the King rotary. Now the closest you'll find is the MW Bill Bell model (if it's still made).

J.c.S.

[DuckCallDan]

I played the prototype BBb top action(based on a York that I owned and played alot) My York was an "if only" horn. GREAT sound, some wierd notes, really beat to death. The Kanstul is the answer to "if only".

I also had a chance to doodle around on this York based prototype horn. The sound was fantastic but the thing that stuck me the most was how easy it was to play, especially below the 2nd partial. I was really impressed by the prototype. It seemed to take 1/4th the normal effort to play a note.

I think a lot of frustrations that beginning tuba players have could be eliminated with a horn like this in their hands.

[Ken Herrick]

Don't get me wrong; they are nice chop jobs. But thery were not ground-up designs, and thus not really worth the money they eventually charged. Too bad - they once had true CCs in the King rotary. Now the closest you'll find is the MW Bill Bell model (if it's still made).

J.c.S.

Problem is these damned kids today won't buy something unless it has four piston valves, a thumb operated flat-whole step rotary valve, a .750" bore and a "York-style" lead pipe. Because it's THOSE things that make you good enough to win an audition.

RC

The "Flavor of the Month" does seem to prevail when it comes to equipment selection. We have had the great CC vs BBb "debate" the bass vs contra argument, the piston vs rotor, "German" vs "American" sound etc. spats with a seeming loss of the idea that the real bottom line is making good "MUSIC"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Output will only ever be as good as the input and good input is dependent on developing good concepts based on observation and comparison then practice.

There are probably at least 50 "good" models of instruments available to players now which were not around when I was say 20 to 30 years old, most all of which I will never have an opportunity to even see, let alone get to play long enough to beome familiar and comfortable with. However, because I spent the time and effort (aided by fine teachers) many years ago, I was recently able to pick up an instrument and straight away produce a better sound than its owner - a pretty reasonable player - after not even touching a tuba for over 6 years.

Conclusion???????? Shut off the damned computer and go practice.

Oh yes, those old King rotary CCs were nice and I never felt the MW Bell model were as good. At least with the MW with the fifth valve somebody might accept you as a "pro" today. Poor old Bill just never would have made it if he had to play an audition today 'cause he didn't have the right gear............. WHAT?????????????

[Timswisstuba]

They are basically King 2341 BBbs with a Dillon-style chop job.

The original prototype done for Conn by Matt Walters at Dillon Music and what Conn pieced together out of their parts bins to save money by not spending any money on tooling were SIGNIFICANTLY different. Conn cheated the design left and right, up and down...

What Conn sold was a hatchet job...

I agree here. Conn took a lot of shortcuts on the production model. However, I had the 56J prototype that Matt made and it was EXCELLENT IN EVERY WAY. (Sound, intonation , etc..) I had the prototype for 2 weeks so I had time to really get to know it. It had a KING bell and was based on the Eb KING monster. I think Mike Lynch has it now.

[Norlan Bewley]

I wouldn't count Conn Selmer out of the tuba business just yet.

Just my impession.

Roger

Ditto!

Norlan

[JCalkin]

They are basically King 2341 BBbs with a Dillon-style chop job.

The original prototype done for Conn by Matt Walters at Dillon Music and what Conn pieced together out of their parts bins to save money by not spending any money on tooling were SIGNIFICANTLY different. Conn cheated the design left and right, up and down...

What Conn sold was a hatchet job...

I agree here. Conn took a lot of shortcuts on the production model. However, I had the 56J prototype that Matt made and it was EXCELLENT IN EVERY WAY. (Sound, intonation , etc..) I had the prototype for 2 weeks so I had time to really get to know it. It had a KING bell and was based on the Eb KING monster. I think Mike Lynch has it now.

Yep. I played the Walters prototype while visiting Mike Lynch in Idaho some years back. It is FAR superior to the production models IMO. Had Conn stuck with Matt's design (not sure why they changed it, both the proto and production horns were built from available Conn BBb parts, IIRC) they would have had a winner.

Not that the 5xJ was a bad line per se, but it wasn't for me.

[Bob Kolada]

How does a 2J compare to a 56J? I would assume they are quite different , but I've only seen and played the 56J. I like it alright, but to me it is a bit light. I prefer the 2341 over it.

[MikeMason]

They r both c tubas.that's about it...