Saxhorn?

[circusboy]

I think this is a Saxhorn. Anybody on here played one of these? I know it's in C with 6 pistons and made by Couesnon, but I don't know it's size, bore, etc. Just curious to learn about it: range, heft of bottom end, agility, intonation, more tubish or euphish in sound, etc.

[bisontuba]

HI-
I think it is a French Tuba in C--as what Bydlo was originally intended for...
mark

[Tom]

Smaller than a modern Bb euphonium (and significantly smaller than a tuba), it will be "euph like" in sound. They are usually referred to as French tubas in C and need 6 valves to access the lower end of the orchestral repertoire. Most of the ones you see around these days are Couesnons. I've never played one, so I can't comment on any of their playing characteristics.

[bort]

With that many valves to blow air through, I'll bet it's...TubeNet's favorite description... "stuffy."

[David Richoux]

They are kind of stuffy, but the worst thing about it is that the sequence of fingering combinations are unlike most valve horns. I practice on mine every once in a while but it takes a long time to disengage my ingrained finger motion patterns.

The topic has been around this list before: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12607

[Roger Fjeldet]

I have one made by the French producer Gras - open in the whole register and easy to play.
French petit basse in C - like a C Euphonium.
3. valve lowers 2 steps
4. valve lowers 2,5 steps
5. valve lowers 0,5 step
6. valve lowers 3,5 steps
I think the Bydlo was written for one of theses
Roger

[Rick Denney]

Saxhorns are not really non-tubas and non-euphoniums. They are just a form of those instruments. As with other forms, they were smaller and narrower in the old days than they tend to be today, but that doesn't make them a separate species.

The saxhorn design was originally developed Adolphe Sax who was into designing systems of instruments. This was a natural outgrowth of the development of the valve. With the valve, brass instruments (other than the trombone) could now play chromatically, and there was interest in producing a line of instruments that could cover the whole range of music. Sax developed such a line with instruments mostly pitched in Eb and Bb, with such names as bass saxhorn in Bb (read: euphonium), bass saxhorn in Eb (read: bass tuba), and contrabass saxhorn in Bb (read: contrabass tuba). The saxhorn design used Perinet valves in top-action configuration, and many included side valves to provide compensation (either by adding replacement valves or by use of the later Blaikley system). Very recently, at least, Courtois was still advertising a bass saxhorn in Bb with five valves. It is a little narrower than a modern euphonium, but that's only because it is an older design. The Barlow F tuba, which was the standard orchestral tuba in England for decades, was a similar design with three top and two side valves. The French C tuba (which you have pictured) is yet a more extreme example. The saxhorn concept was dominant in France and the British Empire until quite recently (and it still is in the UK). Your average top-action Besson tuba or euphonium is as much a saxhorn as any modern instrument in the Courtois catalog. The instruments have gotten fatter, but that's an evolutionary change, not a revolutionary change.

In Germany, the original systems of valved brass instruments were marketed by Wieprecht, who favored front-action instruments. His first tuba--the first Basstuba--was pitched in F and had five valves--three for the right hand and two for the left. The Berlinerpumpen valves that he used morphed into the rotary valves, and thus the front-action rotary tuba became standard in German-speaking countries.

In the U.S., both concepts were blended, just as the immigrants who brought the traditions here were blended. There are traditional saxhorns such as the Distin, variations on the saxhorn such as the Civil-War-era over-the-shoulder saxhorns (some of which have rotary valves), and front-action instruments with perinet valves. The uniquely American concept was the fatness of the instruments, starting at about the turn of the last century.

So, yes, this is a saxhorn but more specifically it is a small French tuba in C.

Rick "who'd like to have one someday, but not willing to pay what they are probably worth" Denney

[Mr.T439]

The Paris Conservatoire used the the petit tuba Francais well into the 1960's.

[iiipopes]

The standard party line is that Mel Culbertson showed up in Paris with a "conventional" CC tuba and was hired. The rest of the French tuba players, who all played the French C tuba pictured above, went out on strike in protest. The orchestras promptly fired all of them and hired replacements that played standard CC tubas. All this happened in a relatively short period of time, and the French C tuba went obsolete literally almost overnight.

[imperialbari]

Sax made no BBb tuba. His contrabass was the Saxhorn Contrebasse en Mi bemol, which we would call an Eb tuba.

Klaus

[Roger Fjeldet]

I think the real reason why the "petit basse" disappeared is that when the orchestras in France (and England) was rebuilt after WWII, the tradition of playing on small and narrow instruments changed as of American influence.
The sound would now be bigger and broader - A bit earlier in France than in England.

Roger

[iiipopes]

Regarding Mel Culbertson, don't take my word for it. Here's what Roger Bobo has to say about the matter:

"46 years ago the French players were still desperately trying to keep their tradition of using small bore tenor tubas in C; the French tuba. I have spoken to conductors who performed in France during that period and their frustration was intense. The French were proud and stubborn, they believed, or at least said they believed, that the French tuba was the best thing for almost everything and if the conductor insisted on a larger tuba (bass or contrabass) they could, of course, play it, but of course, it required extra pay! It wasn’t until about twelve years later when Mel Culbertsen won the position in the Paris Opera that things quickly started to change. Now France produces some of the most sophisticated and versatile tubists in the world."

http://www.tubanews.com/index.php?optio ... &Itemid=86" target="_blank

Or what Rose Schweikhart, moderator of TubaNews, and a professional tuba player in her own right:

"Yes there was a French Tuba in C, not CC. It's one tone above the Euphonium! This was the instrument of choice in France from the mid 1800s till abougt the 1960s when Mel Culbertson won the job at the Paris opera with his big American tubas. Guess what? The rest of the french Tubists went on strike because he wasn't using the French C - in the meantime, the French orchestras needed tuba players so they hired in players from England and America and Germany - other big tuba people. Well it stuck..."

http://206.130.110.220/forums/showthread.php?p=2398" target="_blank

Or, finally, this quote on page 155 of The Cambridge Companion to Brass Instruments by Trevor Herbert and John Wallace:

"...Roger Bobo (1938---) settled in Europe, following Melvin Culbertson (1946---) who virtually single-handedly revolutionized traditional French tuba playing."