When is a tuba a ______-brand tuba?

[iiipopes]

Anybody want to remember the late-'70's Oldsmobiles with the Chevy engines, and how that lead to the stickers that have to say where the parts come from, and the disclaimers that, "This automobile may have a motor made by any GM division," or words to that effect?

[imperialbari]

The Markneukirchen tradition was about various master craftsmen specializing in various parts, where the main categories were bells, valves, and mouthpieces. Possibly there also were specialists in making stays and crooks of the most common types (one German maker specializes in making pedals for pianos).

The master instruments were engraved with the name of the master doing the assembly. He likely also also was the one doing the design.

Gronitz have their bells made by MW now. Mahillon at one point of time had their bells made by MW, whereas the somewhat famous British 3+2 pistons non-comping F tubas (name forgotten) had valves made by Mahillon.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

None of the above is the correct answer, Joe. I figure I can call it whatever I want as long as I'm specific as to where the various parts came from.

For example... if I advertise a Mirafone 186 with a Chinese clone bell.... I will say that. I don't think it would be proper to simply say it's a Mirafone.

[jamsav]

Agreed Dan- anything adulterated should be identified as such . The used miraphone with the mw bell might be just fine, but it should be duly noted . I dont think it is an " unqualified " Miraphone.
Is a horn assembled in Indiana from all used Besson parts a Besson ? It might actually be better than some of their horns of late ( opinion ) , but it isnt of their factory and manufacture process . I love the catch-all " Franken tuba " to identify customized rebuilts, but it seems to perjure and somewhat lessen what may be a very fine , well thought out effort to create something greater than the sum of its parts .

[NDSPTuba]

I voted the bell and bows. I might have the wrong assumption, but isn't that the part of the instrument that dictates the sound the most. When people speak of certain brands of instruments, they almost always tie a brand with a type of sound. So as long as the sound of the brand is intact them the rest of the bits can come from where ever. Especially considering the relatively popular conversion for the big old american brands from top to front valved with a brand X valve set.

[tubaguy9]

I voted the bell and bows. I might have the wrong assumption, but isn't that the part of the instrument that dictates the sound the most. When people speak of certain brands of instruments, they almost always tie a brand with a type of sound. So as long as the sound of the brand is intact them the rest of the bits can come from where ever. Especially considering the relatively popular conversion for the big old american brands from top to front valved with a brand X valve set.

I'd tend to agree...the Dynasty G contra bugles, the valve set's made by Willson...but we still call them Dynasty contras...

[Rick Denney]

The older (high $$$$'s) 5/4 Dynasty GG contra's were (to my knowledge) 100% Willson-made.

The current ones are (again, to my knowledge) 100% Weril-made.

You aren't talking about stenciling, or buying tubas from a house brand.

You're talking about someone who assembles parts made by others and puts their own label on it. The Music F tuba I once owned is an example of that. All the parts came from here and there (mostly Amati/Cerveny) but it said "Made in Austria" and was apparently assembled there.

But I think the design counts. A maker might buy valves from B&M, bells from Meinl-Weston, bottom bows from VMI, and lacquer from Nikolas, but arrange it all their own particular way, different from any of the above. Stuff comes in as parts, and goes out as finished tubas--that's the correct description of a manufacturer. If they buy bells, bows, and valves from, say, Miraphone, and make their own thumb ring, but assemble it all, then I suspect their supply deal with Miraphone might run into trouble unless their prices are really high.

There is a fellow who takes old Polaroid 110B cameras (from the days of Polaroid folding cameras) and replaces the back part to accept 4x5" sheet film. He also mounts a modern lens. Then, he covers it with polished gold crap and snakeskin, and sells it for megabucks to those who don't know any better (Angelina Jolie bought one for Brad Pitt, according to one magazine). I won't mention his name, because he regularly searches on it and he's a wacko. But others have made the same conversion, calling their product a converted Polaroid 110B and giving it their own name, only to be challenged (so far verbally only) by this guy. He thinks the camera is really his creation.

Rick "suspecting that some places have laws dictating the percentage value added required to be a manufacturer" Denney

[tubaguy9]

The older (high $$$$'s) 5/4 Dynasty GG contra's were (to my knowledge) 100% Willson-made.

Well, I knew at least the valve set was Willson because the horn said so...

[imperialbari]

ally high.

There is a fellow who takes old Polaroid 110B cameras (from the days of Polaroid folding cameras) and replaces the back part to accept 4x5" sheet film. He also mounts a modern lens. Then, he covers it with polished gold crap and snakeskin, and sells it for megabucks to those who don't know any better (Angelina Jolie bought one for Brad Pitt, according to one magazine).

Small wonder they are splitting.

K

[ger]

The Markneukirchen tradition was about various master craftsmen specializing in various parts, where the main categories were bells, valves, and mouthpieces. Possibly there also were specialists in making stays and crooks of the most common types (one German maker specializes in making pedals for pianos).

The master instruments were engraved with the name of the master doing the assembly. He likely also also was the one doing the design.

It's my understanding that at the time it was common practice even for wholesalers (like C.A. Wunderlich) to engrave their own names on the instruments, instead of the name of the instrument's inventor or maker, as they were able to dictate prices and conditions.

[imperialbari]

The Markneukirchen tradition was about various master craftsmen specializing in various parts, where the main categories were bells, valves, and mouthpieces. Possibly there also were specialists in making stays and crooks of the most common types (one German maker specializes in making pedals for pianos).

The master instruments were engraved with the name of the master doing the assembly. He likely also also was the one doing the design.

It's my understanding that at the time it was common practice even for wholesalers (like C.A. Wunderlich) to engrave their own names on the instruments, instead of the name of the instrument's inventor or maker, as they were able to dictate prices and conditions.

You refer to the well known stencil scheme, which I didn’t didcuss for two reasons:

I didn’t perceive that being the intended topic of the OP

Stenciling apparently was/is less common in high end instruments, where a correct engraving is more critical

Klaus

[oedipoes]

I voted the bell and bows. I might have the wrong assumption, but isn't that the part of the instrument that dictates the sound the most. When people speak of certain brands of instruments, they almost always tie a brand with a type of sound. So as long as the sound of the brand is intact them the rest of the bits can come from where ever. Especially considering the relatively popular conversion for the big old american brands from top to front valved with a brand X valve set.

I'd tend to agree...the Dynasty G contra bugles, the valve set's made by Willson...but we still call them Dynasty contras...

The older (high $$$$'s) 5/4 Dynasty GG contra's were (to my knowledge) 100% Willson-made.

The current ones are (again, to my knowledge) 100% Weril-made.

During the Willson/Dynasty GG contra era, I believe Willson was (as many manufacturers in Europe do) buying their valvesets from another European maker. I know that there was SOME sort of change a few years ago, as (because of a change in source of the Willson valvesets) the "oddball" 2975 euphonium was not available for a year or so...but I'm not sure whether they are actually now making their own, or whether they simply shifted to another supplier...??

The Willson website says:
"In December 1988 Kurath sen. and his son integrated the engineering company "Bauerfeind", of Nauheim, Germany into Willson Band Instruments Flums. This, however was sold again at a later date. Today we produce all piston valves from the trumpet to the tuba on our company premises in Flums. This move in piston valve production has enabled us to achieve high standards!"

(willson valves, whether piston or rotary, are among the best out there... my personal opinion)

Wim

[bort]

2. The horn I recently sold was a MW32 with a York bell, which I called a MW32 with a York bell. Because it was neither a MW32 nor a York. It was a MW32 with a York bell...

Similarly, I used to own a VMI 4/4 CC tuba. David Fedderly described it as the body and bell of a MW32, with a VMI valve set attached to it. It said VMI on the bell and David called it a VMI, so I did too.

...and from my experience (and from what I've seen), buyers want a _____-brand tuba, not a "just like a _____-brand tuba." No matter how "just like" it is, it's hard to sell people on that. I'm sure there are a lot of great tubas that have taken too long to sell because of the "name" factor.

[iiipopes]

Anybody want to remember the late-'70's Oldsmobiles with the Chevy engines, and how that lead to the stickers that have to say where the parts come from, and the disclaimers that, "This automobile may have a motor made by any GM division," or words to that effect?

Actually, I was referring to stuff owned, shown, and offered for sale in the custom/re-built realm.

Yeah, I know. But it was just there.

[MartyNeilan]

I don't care what the name on the bell is if the horn plays well. I have tried some "big name" horns that had horrible issues, and some no-name or underrated horns horns that work fine.

What's in a name, anyway?

"Big" Marty

[jamsav]

" would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet ?"....those who know and " get it " dont care. It might matter to the uninitiated , it could also impact resale value...if it sounds good, play it !!!

[iiipopes]

The conventional wisdom used to be when faced with a limited budget in purchasing an instrument, go for a good used one of a reputable or recognizable name brand instead of a shiny new lesser known or no-name brand, because the name did mean something with regards to reputation for quality and durability. Except for my first trumpet in grade school that was purchased for me, that is how I have purchased most of my instruments, with good success and better turnaround if selling was indicated.

With the Chinese horns getting better in recent years, however, that might not be as strong as a pedagogical statement as it used to be.

And the "frankenhorns" that now proliferate, with bells, bows, valve blocks and leadpipes assembled from the huge universe of a buffet of parts (this is not an aspersion -- this is simply a recognition that some very fine horns have been built, salvaged or remodeled this way) available after so many decades of manufacture by so many manufacturers, also lend to a more "how does it play" rather than "who made it" to determine "what's it worth."

[pgym]

I don't care what the name on the bell is if the horn plays well. I have tried some "big name" horns that had horrible issues, and some no-name or underrated horns horns that work fine.

What's in a name, anyway?

Are you saying that if you paid $2x,xxx for what you thought was a handmade MW 6450 Baer and received a $4000 Selman 6450 stencil that played well instead, you wouldn't care?

[sloan]

This question highlights the need for a broad liberal arts education. You'll find it covered in most Philosophy 101 classes.

[Tubaguyry]

You didn't have an option for my vote: When the bows and valveset are original.