Philosophical help here

[bort]

Philosophy aside, get a used Miraphone 186 (BBb or CC). It'll be an outstanding tuba for a HS player and certainly plenty of tuba for a college student as well.

They can be picked up at a reasonable price, and (like you are concerned about...) typically have a very high return value. (That is, if you get a used one for $3,500, you could likely sell it for [nearly] $3,500 a few years from now.)

Rarely would I consider an "upgrade" (more like "change") of tuba another full-on investment of $5k to $8k, but rather a sale of what you have now, and a minor contribution of more $$.

[Tom]

I would suggest having your daughter play on school owned instruments as long as possible/necessary, with the idea that purchasing an instrument can be done once in college under the guidance of a good teacher and with her own more developed ideas about what she likes and doesn't like in an instrument. Sound concepts and tastes in instruments change as players develop and are exposed to more music, playing situations, differnt teachers, and other players. Keep that in mind when deciding to buy now or buy later.

A HS band director mentioned to me that many of his students that have gone on have all had to buy new/different instruments that they played is HS...Often leaving the parents stuck with another 5k - 8k purchase just a few years after a purchase.

Perhaps it's just me, but I'm a bit confused by this part of your post...

Are you indicating that you need to buy a tuba for your daughter to play in high school and that you're worried that it will be a different size, type, key, etc. than what you need to buy for a college student?

Do you really have to purchase a tuba for her to be able to play in band/orchestra/take lessons? If not, wait. Let you daughter develop her skills on what is available and invest some of that "tuba money" in lessons that will pay off in the end when it does come time to purchase a tuba.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Her playing is good enough she has been asked to join a local group where she is the only GS student.

She's in grade school? Is that what GS means? I need that clarification before any other comments would be appropriate or helpful. Thanks.

[sailracer90]

I have a Cerveny ACB681 im selling, would you be interested in that? its a smaller C tuba. Amazing intonation, great tone all around. Im just looking for something a bit larger at the moment. The valves are nice and close together, i can upload a pic, here.
It also has a fifth valve, but that is over on the other side of the horn, so it wont be a problem.
I doubt that its like the other cervenys shes played.

[jamsav]

I dont think running out and spending alot of money at this point makes any sense. Perhaps one of the 3/4 student yamahas might suit her. One, it might be hard to get a " pro level " horn that will fit a preadolescent . Two, the difficulty associated with someone on the smaller side trying to move around with any full size horn invites damage . Three, anything like my kids , her interests may change and her desire to stay with tuba might be a long shot .
So, I would go with a decent , smaller horn, or a compact 4/4 like the aforementioned Chinese Shillers or MMs or Dillons or Tuba Exchanges etc...etals....the potential for catastrophic loss significantly reduced , and if she continues to develope as a player, she can pick her own horn for her sweet 16 ...

[djwesp]

Philosophy aside, get a used Miraphone 186 (BBb or CC).quote]

Schiller CC (Miraphone copy - $1900 + shipping, featherweight case included).

I think bloke and bort are right on with their advice. Both used 186's and the 186 copies are great ideas.

[sloan]

You asked for philosophy - so that's what I'll offer - no brand names.

If your daughter is very young (is she really in GRADE SCHOOL???) then you should consider that she might grow a bit. The ideal horn for her in college may be nearly impossible for her to play now. You are going to purchase 2 (or 1 + 2) tubas eventually.

Consider the total cost of owning the tuba. The one(s) she gets in college could (conceivably) last for 20 years, or more. The one you want to purchase now will be re-sold in 5 years or so. This tells me that you want a USED instrument that has already gone through the big price drop as it left the store. For a "20-year" tuba, this is not significant; for a "5-year" tuba, it is.

Being restricted by her small size presents a real problem. Many 3/4 instruments are "student models", and all will have some difficulty in carrying a large ensemble single-handedly. I suspect they also have relatively poor resale value. So - you want a good, used 4/4 horn with good ergonomics for a small person. For that, you are going to have to deal with someone who passes a lot of used horns through his shop and understands your problem. Even then, you probably need to travel to the shop and test-play everything. It's probably more realistic to budget for a "looking around" trip to a few good shops, followed by a "now we're buying" trip to fine tune your choices.

The most important idea is: PLAN ON SELLING in 5 years - and budget and purchase with that in mind.

[Art Hovey]

I know that the Cerveny thumb ring is not made for small hands. But it would not be very difficult to design and construct a wooden device that could be lashed onto the tuba, with a thumb ring in the right position for her hand. That way she could use the school's Cerveny for a few years, at least. When she finally gets her own tuba she will be big enough to handle it, and the school instrument can easily be restored to its former condition.

Here's a photo of a similar project; not for a thumb ring, but perhaps it can give you an idea of what I mean.

[Ken Herrick]

A fair spread of ideas here and my upcoming suggestion might be somewhat of a composite of several.

If you have the means to purchase an instrument which your daughter can call her own, I think it would be a fine idea. I am rather inclined toward recommending a used "quality" brand instrument. You might want to consider keeping the instrument at home for some time rather than leaving it at school where who knows what will happen to it or carting it back and forth all the time. A "private" practice area at home could well allow her to spend more quality practice time. The instrument could still be taken to lessons and some older group rehearsals etc. Having a decent instrument to play, rather than fighting against some piece of junk can make a big difference to how committed a young student will be and remain and certainly aid in their making progress.

I don't necessarily agree with the buy it now then sell in 5 years as a plan - though a wise investment now will make that a less costly event later on. I also DO NOT feel there is any good reason to expect her to ever have to "carry" a large ensemble while in GS or HS. If you are going to buy an instrument get the one which suits her and will be the greatest aid in her development. The goal should be her musical development - not making monstrous (by any definition) noises.

AS part of a long term plan, it might be worth considering finding a Mirafone 184, (the little brother to the 186) preferably 5 valve and most likely in BBb. A good one should be available at a reasonable price and if cared for will virtually not depreciate in value. It would make a light weight, easily transportable instrument which she could handle far more easily than most other instruments. I suggest BBb as that is what I am guessing her GS & HS would have, meaning she can concentrate on the musical aspects of playing without having to go through the mechanical side of learning new fingerings before it is possibly otherwise necessary to do so. They are a good instrument - very "playable" and something with which, again, she can concentrate on making music rather than fighting an overly large horn.

Down the track, should she continue, she might even like to keep the 184 as a "solo" instrument while taking on a larger one for larger ensembles. From what you have said about her academic ability, I suspect she would be a hard worker and must be showing a fair bit of talent. You might want to explore alternative schooling options as well as private tuition in music. Possibly a summer at some place like Interlochen could be on the cards. By saving on the cost of purchasing a tuba these factors will be more manageable also.

Many factors to consider and worth taking time.

[iiipopes]

I'm with bloke and bort.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

WARNING: The following opinion is not very "PC"...continuing to read may subject you to possible offense. You have been warned.

Having received no explanation of the term "GS" in the last post by the OP, I will now assume that it does indeed mean "grade school" (pretty obvious, since "HS" is used for high school) and will now offer my opinion:

You guys are easy. Look at this story.

A 7th grader who has 3 trombones (2 "pro level" instruments yet only the 42BO is mentioned - why the need for another?), has "pasted" his teachers (how rude), is "sought out" by many local groups (really? "many" local groups have spots for 7th grade trombone players?), and has been invited to play in a state-wide competition (what music competitions need to seek out and invite potential competitors?) for high school scholarships (huh? where in the world can 7th graders get money for high school by playing trombone?).

A grade school student (5th grade?) who is nationally ranked academically (what does that mean? there's a national academic ranking system for grade school students?), a good enough tuba player to be asked to join an adult group with at least two other tuba players who are already competing to be her next teacher (how long until they are "pasted" as well?), and is already getting equipment advice from the high school director who knows enough about tubas to tell a grade school student they will need a C or F tuba for college (sure).

Consider this...how many "band dads" would know what a Yamaha 641 is? How many would ask an adult player specifically what model horn they have? How many would write "CC" in reference to a tuba? How can he be so well-versed in the language of tuba models but not realize that anything that might fit a 5th grader's hand isn't going to be the last tuba a serious performer would need?

This is a community large enough to have "many" local music groups requesting the 7th grade trombone player but so small they need grade school support in the tuba section of one local band? That's REALLY hard to swallow. I call BS. This story is either a complete fabrication or ridiculous exaggeration. Either way, it's a waste of time making equipment recommendations for a 5th grader.

If, by some wild stretch of the imagination, I am wrong and the story is absolutely true, then my philosophical answer is...have her play the school horn. What's the hurry? She's in GRADE SCHOOL. Apparently she sounds good enough on the little Dynasty to garner high praise and yet she is "past" it...does that make any sense to anyone?

Or is the philosophical question this one...how outlandish a tale can you weave and still get well-meaning folks to try and help?

[bort]

Ooh, good suggestion, Ken! A Miraphone 184 would be a good choice as well! There's even a BBb for sale on the board here for a good price!

[MartyNeilan]

Remove the thumb ring - problem solved. You don't need it anyway.
Takes 10 seconds to unscrew, or 30 seconds with a torch to unsolder (qualified repairman suggested.)

[pierso20]

Remove the thumb ring - problem solved. You don't need it anyway.
Takes 10 seconds to unscrew, or 30 seconds with a torch to unsolder (qualified repairman suggested.)

I never play with them, even to this day. I ALWAYS make my students take them off anyway. Players tend to use it as a point to "push on" which causes needless stress. It's WAY more relaxing without them (once you're used to it). Works well with young players too (as suggested).

[sailn2ba]

I agree with the thumb ring observations. The position on my Cervenys hurts my thumb. I unscrewed it from my 686 and just don't use it on my 681.

[b.williams]

Hello.
My 1.5 cents.

Try to find a used Yamaha 103 tuba. 3/4 size. Three front action pistons. Capable of producing a good sound. IMHO, perfect for a young tuba player.

[pgym]

WARNING: The following opinion is not very "PC"...continuing to read may subject you to possible offense. You have been warned.

Having received no explanation of the term "GS" in the last post by the OP, I will now assume that it does indeed mean "grade school" (pretty obvious, since "HS" is used for high school) and will now offer my opinion:

You guys are easy. Look at this story.

A 7th grader who has 3 trombones (2 "pro level" instruments yet only the 42BO is mentioned - why the need for another?), has "pasted" his teachers (how rude), is "sought out" by many local groups (really? "many" local groups have spots for 7th grade trombone players?), and has been invited to play in a state-wide competition (what music competitions need to seek out and invite potential competitors?) for high school scholarships (huh? where in the world can 7th graders get money for high school by playing trombone?).

A grade school student (5th grade?) who is nationally ranked academically (what does that mean? there's a national academic ranking system for grade school students?), a good enough tuba player to be asked to join an adult group with at least two other tuba players who are already competing to be her next teacher (how long until they are "pasted" as well?), and is already getting equipment advice from the high school director who knows enough about tubas to tell a grade school student they will need a C or F tuba for college (sure).

Consider this...how many "band dads" would know what a Yamaha 641 is? How many would ask an adult player specifically what model horn they have? How many would write "CC" in reference to a tuba? How can he be so well-versed in the language of tuba models but not realize that anything that might fit a 5th grader's hand isn't going to be the last tuba a serious performer would need?

This is a community large enough to have "many" local music groups requesting the 7th grade trombone player but so small they need grade school support in the tuba section of one local band? That's REALLY hard to swallow. I call BS. This story is either a complete fabrication or ridiculous exaggeration. Either way, it's a waste of time making equipment recommendations for a 5th grader.

If, by some wild stretch of the imagination, I am wrong and the story is absolutely true, then my philosophical answer is...have her play the school horn. What's the hurry? She's in GRADE SCHOOL. Apparently she sounds good enough on the little Dynasty to garner high praise and yet she is "past" it...does that make any sense to anyone?

Or is the philosophical question this one...how outlandish a tale can you weave and still get well-meaning folks to try and help?

Given the indifferent logical coherence and indifferent spelling in the OP and the followup, the repeated reference to the HS band director, the fact that the OP's daughter is purportedly ranked nationally academically, and the immediate proximity of "G" and "H" on the standard keyboard, I think if far more plausible—to the point of being obvious to those who are not intentionally or maliciously seeking an excuse to attack the OP's credibility—that "GS" is a typo than that the OP's daughter is in grade school.

[cjk]

If I were you, given the information you have provided regarding with your daughter's health problems and diminutive size, I would buy her a very small tuba. It sounds like carrying around a YBB641 might injure her.

There's a five valve Mirafone 184 BBb for sale in the for sale forum here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37142" target="_blank" target="_blank. These are also made in CC.

Other than that, I might look for a Yamaha YBB 621 or YCB 621.

I would buy her a BBb tuba if I were in your place.

[Bob Kolada]

A Weril might be a good combination of good horn/small size/affordable/keepable.

[Donn]

There is a wider variety of tuba's than trombone styles so its a bit more involved here.

Right. A bewildering variety of tubas - types of valves, sizes, shapes, really all over the place, and each with their own compromises. Many of us are big - it's a stereotype, but not a myth (how many of us wear size 13 or greater shoes, for example?) - and none of us really have any idea what will suit this kid.

Our philosophical advice may be good (like one of the Kens above I think you'd find a lot of advanced tuba players still keep one or more smallish, fairly economical tubas around because they're very useful for certain things, so you don't have to think about selecting the tuba for the next 8 years, only a tuba.)

... but our instrument selection advice could be awful. It sounds like she's in a pretty good position to pick something herself, if she can get physical access to the prospects. That one week trial period idea is nice, but I'd rather have 15 minutes a piece on two dozen tubas, than one week a piece on four tubas ... just seems to me, shipping tubas back and forth is liable to limit your options. Travel can be fun and educational, maybe there's some way to expand your geographical range. Meet a few Tubenet members in person, while you're at it - I'm sure Todd is eager to meet you two!