Rotary valve alignment and intonation

[Mark Horne]

My specific issue is with a french horn, but the question applies equally any rotary valve instrument. Besides, a horn in F is basically a very small bore 3-valved F Tuba - right?

I have a Hans Hoyer 6802 double horn (F/Bb) that is essentially brand new and sounds great. I've played it on several gigs, but find myself fighting its tendency to be quite sharp - I have the main tuning slide pretty much all the way out, which I find disconcerting since I can usually set-and-forget the slides on most horns. Last night I spent a lot of time with a tuner, checking out different mouthpieces and tuning notes and found quite a bit a variation from note to note, but overall unacceptably sharp. I finally thought to check the rotor alignment, and found that the third valve rotor to be slightly off when at rest (as if the bumper was too thick). The second rotor showed the same thing to a lesser degree. I tried a few notes using 3rd valve only and found them to be flat relative to other notes just above or below.

I'm theorizing (hoping) that the misaligned 3rd rotor is causing the open notes (and others not using valve 3) to play sharp. Have others observed this behavior with their horns?

I'm appealing to this forum because there are many contributors with a wealth of real world experience on both the playing and mechanics of rotary brass instruments. I have yet to find a similar forum for the french horn.

Thanks in advance, Mark

[Rick Denney]

It's hard to say, and few here are experts on French horns (though there are a few). I'm certainly not one of them. I wouldn't think it would make that much of a difference, but given that you know you have to have the valves realigned anyway, why not just get that done and then take another look at intonation? Aligning valves ain't that hard to do for a tech with access to bumpers and the appropriate blades.

Don't expect making this change to fix the overall sharpness, however. If you are an experienced horn player, and if you don't have the problem on other horns, then maybe it's the instrument is set up for a different tuning standard (e.g. A-444) and you need a tech to lengthen the slide. Otherwise, have the horn checked by an experienced hornist to make sure it's not you.

Rick "who always suspects the operator when noticing intonation problems in his own playing" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

I do not rely on the 'little marks' on the back plate and bearing for precise alignment. You might get it close by aligning the marks but to get it right... you need a borescope.

[imperialbari]

I have a Hoyer 5 valve single Bb. In my country these horn were promoted by some players using small mouthpieces. I use a large Giardinelly J4 with and opened-up backbore, and I have to pull my main tuning slide further on the Hoyer than other players do and also further than I pull on my Conn 28D. If the horn is in tune with itself with the longer main slide pull, I don’t see a problem. Most horn have the 3rd slide lowering the horn more than the combination of 1+2.

The best check of the through (non-activated) position of the 3rd rotor may be to take out the slide and apply a small pencil light through one of the receiver branches, while you observe the rotor position through the other branch.

Klaus

[Roger Lewis]

You may need to get with the manufacturer to get a slightly longer tuning slide. These horns are made in Germany, where the pitch center can be quite a bit higher than A=442. Some tubas I get in require an "American slide" to get them down to A=440. Usually the ferrules are about an inch longer on the main slide (2" total) to get the slide position where it belongs. Your horn may have a European slide and need one that is just a bit longer to get things to center better. If the main slide is out too far then it affects the "bore gap" at the slide and will affect the response and pitch a bit.

Just my $0.02.

Roger

[Matt Walters]

Mark,
1) It could be as Roger Lewis suggested, the horn was made at A=443 for the European market. But that alone does not explain the slide being all the way out.

2) It could be that the horn is not gving you the resistance you want so you are lipping up to make the horn "feel right" for you. Someone else that plays more relaxed will play it flatter and not have any pitch problems. Your body wants what it wants and this may not be the right horn for you.

3) If the rotors are out of alignment enough, the horn will not slot (give feed back) to you and then it is very common to again lip up to get resitance and that "feel right" you may want.

Here is a "Matt'ism" that I sometimes quote to myself. "If you can't figure out exactly what is causing the problem, then fix what you see is wrong."

It won't hurt to be thorough in aligning the rotors. Don't trust the alignment marks but in quality German horns they will at least be very close.

[Mark Horne]

Lots of good responses here - all have valuable insight. Meister Hans Hoyer is under the B&S umbrella, and as a German instrument it may well be optimized for a higher tuning standard. It certainly requires its slides to be pulled out more than a Conn 8D with which it shares much similarity in design.

I think Matt may be onto something with the nature of the "blow." My other horns have more of a medium bell throat size whereas the Hoyer is a large throat. I never noticed how much more open the Hoyer is until I played it side by side with a more resistant horn, such as the Conn 6D. The Conn was easy to keep in tune - interesting enough after playing a while, then switching to the Hoyer, the Hoyer now appeared to be in tune. After time, the Hoyer gradually got sharper. This wasn't just temperature effect - it seemed like I was unconsciously pushing the horn a little harder to keep the same feel. There's no doubt that the Hoyer is more sensitive to right hand position and the positioning of my throat with respect to intonation. I imagine this is a direct effect of the increased openness of the horn; I suspect the same phenomenon would apply to tubas as well.

An interesting side note - I did my second set of evaluations after receiving my new Peterson virtual strobe tuner. What a performance improvement over the inexpensive hand held or clip-on tuners I've used in the past. Used to be, I would just check a tuning note once and move on with my practice. No more. With this thing I can see very clearly the bad habits I have developed with respect to intonation of the various notes throughout the scale (and the changes that occur over time). I know there's a danger of becoming too dependent on electronic tuners - which is why I didn't use one often, but I've realized that I need to spend a lot more time re-training my ears to hear accurate pitch and make the proper adjustments.