Looking for a 6/4 American Bb BAT

[Roger Fjeldet]

Very nice indeed, but actually not the 6/4`s i`m looking for (at the moment)
A question (actually two) for the 345-players out there:
Which mouthpiece seems to fit the Holton best?
Big or small? - Do you use BAM`s on BAT`s (Thats a good one )?

Roger

[MartyNeilan]

Back on topic...

How would a horn having 3 vs. 4 valves affect pedal Bb, A,.... (unless something's really screwed up!)?

The more valves, the more chance for leaks, misalignment, etc. Not to mention goin through a few additional tight curves even when everything is perfect. Especially with older valves, the fewer valves the air has to pass through (open or closed) the smother the airstream (Just ask any bass trombonist.)

[Ken Herrick]

Back on topic...

How would a horn having 3 vs. 4 valves affect pedal Bb, A,.... (unless something's really screwed up!)?

The more valves, the more chance for leaks, misalignment, etc. Not to mention goin through a few additional tight curves even when everything is perfect. Especially with older valves, the fewer valves the air has to pass through (open or closed) the smother the airstream (Just ask any bass trombonist.)

Marty - you REALLY have missed the point!!!!!

The extra valves are for having more places where you can store BEER or other libations.

[EdFirth]

My first tuba was a Conn 24J. My H.S. owned a Conn 25J. When I joined the Army my band had all 24J's.I have since owned and played on a 34J(top action), and a 1923 Holton 6/4 front action four banger. There are many Martins here in town(6/4) which I've been lucky enough to play on quite a bit and here are my observations for what they're worth. The Conns all have a solid sound and doable pitch. On all but the Grand Orchestral that my friend has the fourth valve is for low C and F and the rest is false tones. Although they are quite good.The Holtons, mine as well as several others here,do have workable pedals and produce a huge sound but not a Jacobs like Dark sound. I don't know if it was the York or ( I suspect) Jake, but they are comparitively bland sounding. My 1923 Holton had the darkest, most colorful sound of all the Holtons I've played. The Martins are consistantly the best sounding/blowing big horns for me.If the valves are in line and there are no huge leaks they are unbelieveable.That being said the drawbacks are that most were 3 valve top bangers, There are some four valve ones but they are few and far betwen. There is one of the Navy band (with the master tuner) ones here.The front action ones that I've played so far look cooler but don't play or sound as good. We had a set of them at the West Point band and they didn't really stand out.So, after this long winded tirade, if you want a great sounding BAT and aren't going to take any auditions, get a Martin Handcraft 3 valve top banger and order a raincatcher from Lee Stofer if you feel you need that.They pop up on the Bay from time to time and there may not be such a thing as a bad one.Ed

[bort]

This tuba belonged to Lenny Jung, a 4v Martin:



REALLY cool tuba, but now it has to spend it's life in a tuba museum in North Carolina.

[bigbob]

I don't see too much mention of the big York CC but today I was lucky enough to play one!! with 4 front pistons and a rotor and it was Great!! such a large sound this is the first BAT that I have been lucky enough to play and never played anything with a 5th rotor(Boy!!~ low notes were so easy) I know now that I can play a bigger horn than my 3J... I told my teacher I wanted one like his!!... He said with a smile they are hard to find... Is that true?? are the other horns mentioned any bigger than the York?? the bottom bow was huge made my 3J look like a midget but wow what a sound..(and I didn't even have to play hard!!) I go to lessons just to hear him play.. I mess up some of my etudes so he'll play them for me on his beautiful horn<s>Is there a place that might have the measurements for the york??He pulled out his slide and that of my 3J and the 3J almost slid in to his<s> What a horn!!! .....................................bigbob

[Rick Denney]

Very nice indeed, but actually not the 6/4`s i`m looking for (at the moment)
A question (actually two) for the 345-players out there:
Which mouthpiece seems to fit the Holton best?
Big or small? - Do you use BAM`s on BAT`s (Thats a good one )?

Roger

The Holtons tend to sound woofy with big, deep funnel mouthpieces. The Revelation 52 mouthpiece that came with it from the factory is a toilet bowl and I call it the Woofmeister. I'm glad I have one only for historical reasons.

I used a PT-48, which is a strong contender in the anti-woof department, without in any way being a small mouthpiece. For that last couple of years, though, I have been using a Stofer Geib, which is an accurate modern reproduction of a vintage Geib mouthpiece. It is more bowl-shaped than the PT-48 (which is sort of a hybrid between a Bach-style bowl and a Helleberg), and it really adds a lot of zip (read: color) to the sound. It is brittle to the point of breaking glass on a Miraphone, however. One does not need a mouthpiece to enhance the breadth of tone on a Holton, and it's better to get a mouthpiece that provides the right kind of useful resistance to improve playability and then relax and let the horn do the work.

There are those who insist that only a smaller Helleberg like the Conn 7B is appropriate for a BAT, but I'm not one of them.

Rick "who doesn't mind tone with a little edge and character in it" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

It is more bowl-shaped than the PT-48 (which is sort of a hybrid between a Bach-style bowl and a Helleberg), and it really adds a lot of zip (read: color) to the sound. It is brittle to the point of breaking glass on a Miraphone, however. One does not need a mouthpiece to enhance the breadth of tone on a Holton, and it's better to get a mouthpiece that provides the right kind of useful resistance to improve playability and then relax and let the horn do the work.

Rick, how different is it from the 48? A little bit, enough, or a lot?

[Rick Denney]

Rick, how different is it from the 48? A little bit, enough, or a lot?

I'm not at home so I can't compare them visually for you. The Geib seems a touch smaller, but it may not actually be. Neither are what I would call small mouthpieces, though they are not the mammoth mouthpieces that some now play. The Doug Elliott T6 that I play on the York Master is bigger, and too big for the Holton in my view.

In terms of how they feel, the Geib has a bit narrower rim.

The Geib provides a little more playability in the upper register, with a bit less in the lower register though this diminished as I got used to it. The sound is not as immediately glorious, but this also changed as I got used to it. The tone is more colorful from the Geib than the PT-48.

I would say that the Geib represents a different archetype than the Helleberg, and the PT-48 is in between, closer to the Geib. Compared to a Helleberg, they are more spacious in the cup but less deep, with more of a rounded bottom.

Another one in the same category worth giving a try is a Laskey 30G.

Rick "and probably a Dillon Geib, too" Denney

[Bob Kolada]

Thanks!

[Lee Stofer]

Any of the great old American 6/4 BBb tubas can be made into a great player, in my opinion.

I have owned several Conn 2X-, and 3XJ tubas, and they all were major performers, whether equipped with 3 - or 4 valves, or front- or upright bell. The mechanical problems, particularly the intonation issues mentioned in this thread, are just that - mechanical problems that disappear when the instrument is fully repaired. Almost all of these instruments must be played with one Conn tuning bit to play correctly. The bit is also a huge help on the recording-bell models, in helping the player to be able to see better and get into a comfortable position. The 22" forward-facing bells make for quicker, tighter response than the 24" upright bells, but the upright bells are quite playable, too. Perhaps the best response of all is achieved using a Kanstul-made upright bell, about 21" in diameter. These instruments are really focused with one of these bells.

I have had the pleasure of working on a few King large rotary BBb tubas, string-action models from the 1930's, and they are just wonderful in every way. They are rare as chicken lips, and almost all of them were recording(front) bell models. Fortunately, Mr. Kanstul is offering an upright bell to fit these instruments, too.

The Martin tubas are unique, as well. These 6/4 tubas were offered in two different bore sizes, but all of them play well when everything is mechanically right. The bit-set for these instruments can make or break them, depending upon whether they are in good working order. I have only had the opportunity to play only a couple of gigs on a Martin, but there were no disappointments in how it played.

Holton 6/4 tubas were an attempt to make a York-style instrument, and to the degree that they were correctly made they were successful. They do not quite have the York sound, because of a difference in the bell, but they are quite good instruments when put good order mechanically. Many of these instruments, in my experience, due to materials, manufacturing or a lot of use, are going the way of old brass, but a restored Holton that is really solid is a real investment. I would guess that the underlying reason for this is that it looks like a York, and American tuba players in particular get dreamy-eyed and weak-in-the-knees over York 6/4 tubas. I have been told by a reliable source that prior to WWII, the Holton tubas were at least for the most part made by York. His proof is that he has a pre-WWII Holton tuba, and a York tuba from the same time period, and they, except for the engraving, are identical, down to every last ferrule and brace.

If money were no object, I'd probably own two or three 6/4 BAT's, or at least do a bit of shopping around. When money is limited, my vote is that the easiest way to get a real world-class 6/4 BAT
sound is to buy a good used Conn 2XJ and practice regularly.

[TUbajohn20J]

Any of the great old American 6/4 BBb tubas can be made into a great player, in my opinion....

...When money is limited, my vote is that the easiest way to get a real world-class 6/4 BAT
sound is to buy a good used Conn 2XJ and practice regularly.

Amen!

[sloan]

OK then...I'm halfway there!

[Dan Schultz]

.....
I have owned several Conn 2X-... tubas, and they all were major performers, whether equipped with 3 - or 4 valves, or front- or upright bell. .....The 22" forward-facing bells make for quicker, tighter response than the 24" upright bells, but the upright bells are quite playable, too. Perhaps the best response of all is achieved using a Kanstul-made upright bell, about 21" in diameter.
......

Lee.... I've never seen anything but 24" bells on the 20/21/24/25J tubas... whether they be upright OR recording bells..... other than the new ones Kanstul makes. We're there 22" recording bells on some of those horns?

[Timswisstuba]

Lee.... I've never seen anything but 24" bells on the 2XJ tubas... whether they be upright OR recording bells..... other than the new ones Kanstul makes. We're there 22" recording bells on some of those horns?

I have an original 23 inch bell-front that is stamped 37J from the 1930's.

When compared to the 24 inch bells, the articulation seems much clearer. I would like to try these Kanstul bells.

[Dan Schultz]

Note that I've edited one of my previous posts. When I think in terms of 2XJ tubas.... I'm only considering the 'big ones'... 20/21/24/25J horns with the massive bows. Not the others that might be thought of as 2'X' tubas.

[Lee Stofer]

I had a 1935 Conn 36J that so many people thought was an awesome-sounding horn. It had an original 22" recording bell - very focused sounding. I think that a number of other Conns also had a 22" recording bell, and they are very nice bells. Bell diameters were not as standardized as one might think. I read in an old Holton ad from the 1920's that, "all tubas were available upon request with bell rim diameters from 18" to 26". King made most of their upright bells in the 19-to-20" bell diameter, but I've also encountered some that were 22", such as the one Bill Bell put on his King for large orchestral works. I just took in a King upright bell that measures 21 7/8" - go figure.

The only 2XJ tubas that I know of are all 6/4-sized tubas, with the massive bottom bow. To my knowledge, they were as follows;

20J - 3 top valves, front bell (most often seen)
21J - 3 top valves, upright bell (less often seen, but available)
22J - 3 front valves, front bell (rare)
23J - 3 front valves, upright bell (more rare)
24J - 4 top valves, front bell (many still out there)
25J - 4 top valves, upright bell (available, but more rare than front-bell versions)
26J - 4 front valves, front bell (very rare)
27J - 4 front valves, upright bell (only a very few ever made, extremely rare)

I have done quite a bit of professional playing on a 20J. They are the least-expensive 6/4 tuba available. With a 20J in proper playing condition and some woodshedding, there is honestly very little music that you couldn't play well on one of these instruments. I have a 20J sitting in the loft of the Tuba Barn right now, that I'll probably clean and repair, then use for my 2010 season gigs, unless someone buys it first.

I would compare the tuba -valve-number issue with cars when I was a teenager. I had an old Ford as my first car. Although I wanted a fire-breathing V-8 and didn't have it, the more modest straight 6 motor took me a lot of places, including college and gigs, and was very dependable and affordable.

[oedipoes]

I would compare the tuba -valve-number issue with cars when I was a teenager. I had an old Ford as my first car. Although I wanted a fire-breathing V-8 and didn't have it, the more modest straight 6 motor took me a lot of places, including college and gigs, and was very dependable and affordable.

With the straight 6 you would have been the petrolhead in town over here...
(But then it would not have taken you to a lot of places, since you would have needed 3 times the money to buy gasoline for it as well, so it would probably not leave the garage very often)
Average is 4 here, lots of us do with 3 cylinders.

Wim (4 pistons on a tuba is ok)

[Lee Stofer]

Point well taken! I was pointing towards being content with a little, much like the passage in Proverbs in the Bible. When stationed in Germany, I rarely ever even used a car to go to a gig. If I wasn't riding a bus or train, I generally took my bike. The bicycle ride was not bad when a bass trombone was in my backpack, but I'll never forget riding about 20 kilometers in the misty rain very early one Easter Sunday morning with a 5/4 Rudi CC in a gig bag on my back, wearing a suit, of course -AARRGGGGHHHH!

[bigbob]

Thank You Lee for the list and explanation of Conn BAT's in BBb are there any in CC? Did King make any BAT CC horns if so could you tell me the numbers...Did Martin make any BAT CC horns?? I found one in BBb pretty nice at a good price.. is it costly to change it to a front 4or5valve CC??would it be a sacrilidge to change the horn?? I'de be glad to call you about it or talk to you at the tuba conference thanks again for the list is there a 28 J?? any info would be greatly appreciated...........................................bob