first prototype (patent not yet applied for)

[imperialbari]

This ultimate tuba suspension takes a bit of preparation by the player to avoid dizziness. Either some NASA training or a long life with Rudolf-Steiner-food and yoga.

Of course the furniture shall be well mounted and then this scientifically developed formula must be abided with:

the gravitation effect must be less than the stickiness-quotient times the area of the player’s behind

Ultimate tuba suspension.jpg

K

[sloan]

My concern is the pounding that a horn would take - especially if I hit a pot hole. I ride 4000 - 6500 miles a year so I know how no matter how hard you try to miss them a pot hole will usually find me. I will probably change the wheels to 26 inch with 2.5 mtb tires and have been thinking of ways to try to pad the trailer to cushion the horn, but am now also thinking of ways to suspend it and/or the horn perhaps in a fashion as Dr. Sloan has done.

Maybe germane to the whole thread, I've been assuming that tubas can take a fair amount of punishment. Compared to, for example, a large saxophone.

When I carry a tuba on the back of my motorcycle, I put some "eggcrate" foam between the tuba and the rear rack, after observing some dents in the bell around that location. Impacts distributed over small areas like that, will cause a dent. Light but repeated impacts with hard surfaces will cause surface damage to lacquer or plating. But a little foam, plus the shock absorption of a bicycle wheel and tire (700C is better, right?), ought to be plenty?

It's all about force vs. impulse. Many parts of a tuba will resist very large forces - and yet yield readily to relatively small impulses. Cushioning (and elastic suspension) are intended to spread out the impulse over both space AND time.

For shipping, you need to worry about what happens when the carton is dropped from a height of 10ft or so and is stopped by concrete or tarmac. The outside of the carton stops instantaneously (impulse!) The question is: how much force can you apply, where can you apply it, and how long do you have (in time or distance) before the tuba stops? Or, how fast is the tuba moving when it hits the wall (and what happens *then)?

You also have to worry about what happens when a 100lb suitcase lands (corner first) on the top of your carton. Here, you have to slow down the suitcase before it gets to your tuba...

[Rick Denney]

I've been so busy that I just had time to only skim the thread.

You are correct in wanting to load it at the corners. If you do, the pipes will be loaded in pure compression, where they are strong, at long as you constrain the shape of the structure, which the box will do (the skin of the box will provide the same structural service as X-bracing).

You could wrap your Velcro straps around the corners in a double-loop (over the side pipe, under the corner pipe, over the other side pipe). Velcro is a good choice. It will provide a high-G failure mode that will absorb a lot of shock in a real disaster. There is no such thing as an inelastic structure, so even the Velcro straps will give a bit. You want some give, but you could probably achieve all the needed give by wrapping the tuba attachment point (or the PVC pipe) in a half-inch layer of closed-cell foam.

S&S make joints for bicycles so that they can be broken down and put in a case. They use Velcro pads that wrap around the tubing to provide that half-inch layer of foam. They also reinforce the large, flat side of the case by using a short piece of PVC with a slip-on floor flange on each end. That provides some crush resistance in the center of the box where you have no structure.

Rick "tossing out a few ideas" Denney

[sloan]

Rick-

What do you think of the idea of lining the carton with polystyrene sheets (and shrinking the cage to fit)?

And...I'm starting to wonder how much I can shrink the cage, to get a few precious "inches" to meet various airline shipping regulations.

Delta (my most frequent airline) specifically allows 120" (L+W+H) for musical instruments (and 100lb - but that's not relevant here). My current carton is 36"+36"+24" = 96". More than comfortable - I could even go to 3'x3'x3'.

Ordinary checked baggage limits are 50lb (I'm still under that, I believe) and 62" (no hope of ever achieving that).

I haven't found good sources for written baggage policies on other airlines. I suppose I should also check the breakpoints for FedEx. My YBB-621 was delivered in a FedEx carton - but that was from a commercial shipping account that went business-to-business, and did not involve residential delivery.

And, of course, there's still the issue of getting the carton to/from the airport. I was amazed last year to find that the MTS case for my 2341 (not huge, but certainly not "compact") dropped neatly into the trunk of an ordinary Yellow Cab (hint: do NOT try this in Europe!)

For all those reasons, I prefer FedEx to checked baggage. Plus - I note that on my last flight from Providence, RI to Birmingham, AL my checked baggage took an extra day to enjoy a scenic tour of the Eastern US, with an overnight stay in White Plains, NY and a change of planes in Detroit. And then there was my wife's recent trip to Dijon, when her bags arrived two days AFTER her scheduled talk (she now has a lovely French outfit or three which she purchased while jetlagged). I try to avoid putting things in checked baggage that I MUST have within 24 hours of arrival at my destination. So far, I've been very lucky and never LOST anything - I've had one bag destroyed (no damage to the contents) and many, many cases of bags delayed by 1-4 days. So...I trust the airlines to get the bags there - but not to get them there on time.

I've had only good experiences with AmTrack - except that it's often inconvenient to pick up or drop off at most railroad stations. UPS does this part right - but they tend to drop and crush too many items.

I'm beginning to see one reason that most prominent tuba soloists prefer bass (Eb or F) tubas...


I think I can shrink it to 35"x30"x20" - but then there's the problem of finding a stock shipping container of exactly that size. [note to self: check the bell diameter on the Buescher...]

Time to start browsing CartonsAreUs...

[Rick Denney]

What do you think of the idea of lining the carton with polystyrene sheets (and shrinking the cage to fit)?

Polystyrene--aka "Styrofoam"--is not strong and only provides some crush resistance. The advantage it has is that it is not elastic and doesn't spring back, so it absorbs energy rather than returning it to the item being protected. That's why it is used in helmets, car bumpers, and the like.

But it has very low strength and it's quite easy to punch a hole in it.

Seems to me you need skin strength to minimize puncture or penetration, structural rigidity to transfer external loads around (rather than through) the tuba, and energy absorption to minimize the effects of externally applied accelerations.

Cardboard is rather limited in preventing penetration, and it has little crush resistance. Cartons used to ship tubas are ineffective for multiple use, and even then they are usually double-walled with stapled corners and premium construction.

Lots of lightweight equipment cases have been made using corrugated plastic sheets wrapped in Cordura nylon, closed with a zipper. The Cordura strongly resists puncture but not penetration. The plastic sheet spreads the penetration load to minimize it. The plastic sheets are made just like corrugated carboard, but with plastic inteads--probably nylon or polyethylene. They are light and pretty strong. I made a computer case using that method many years ago, so I know that it is possible to use that sort of construction at home if you have some sewing skills (and lots of thimbles). The plastic is encased between the Cordura shell and a thin liner.

Wrap that around your pipe frame system, and you'll probably have a case that can withstand normal multiple use.

Nothing will protect a tuba from serious abuse, though.

Rick "thinking a zipped flap would also allow TSA inspections without damage" Denney

[Donn]

Lots of lightweight equipment cases have been made using corrugated plastic sheets wrapped in Cordura nylon, closed with a zipper. The Cordura strongly resists puncture but not penetration. The plastic sheet spreads the penetration load to minimize it. The plastic sheets are made just like corrugated carboard, but with plastic inteads--probably nylon or polyethylene. They are light and pretty strong.

Sounds like "fluted polypropylene", commonly used for yard signs among other things. Real strong. I actually have a fluted polypropylene instrument case about 1/3 completed, in the basement. Stalled on a design problem or two, but the ca. 4 foot long body of the case is just 2 layers of the stuff, contact cemented together in a rounded/folded shape, and it's plenty strong. I don't think I would add fabric, unless for cosmetic reasons.

Resistance to what I think you're calling penetration is naturally much better if it's curved or folded. In the present application, where shape of container dictates large flat sides, maybe fold a sheet repeatedly to replicate the `corrugated' structure of the material on a larger scale, then cement that to a flat sheet with flutes oriented at 90 degrees on one or both sides ... strong as a board, I bet.

[sloan]

Lots of lightweight equipment cases have been made using corrugated plastic sheets wrapped in Cordura nylon, closed with a zipper. The Cordura strongly resists puncture but not penetration. The plastic sheet spreads the penetration load to minimize it. The plastic sheets are made just like corrugated carboard, but with plastic inteads--probably nylon or polyethylene. They are light and pretty strong.

Sounds like "fluted polypropylene", commonly used for yard signs among other things. Real strong. I actually have a fluted polypropylene instrument case about 1/3 completed, in the basement. Stalled on a design problem or two, but the ca. 4 foot long body of the case is just 2 layers of the stuff, contact cemented together in a rounded/folded shape, and it's plenty strong. I don't think I would add fabric, unless for cosmetic reasons.

Resistance to what I think you're calling penetration is naturally much better if it's curved or folded. In the present application, where shape of container dictates large flat sides, maybe fold a sheet repeatedly to replicate the `corrugated' structure of the material on a larger scale, then cement that to a flat sheet with flutes oriented at 90 degrees on one or both sides ... strong as a board, I bet.

So...two questions:

a) How would one make a simple "box" out of this stuff?
b) Assume that "large flat sides" are a bug, not a feature - is it feasible to make a "molded" case?

I started with the 3'x3'x2' box because that's what's available as a stock shipping carton. The shipping cartons themselves are not intended for multiple use (perhaps 4-6 one-way trips, maximum). You pretty much have to purchase them in bundles of at least 5, so...

For a more permanent and polished solution, I'm thinking that a "naked" ATA case could replace the cardboard shipping carton. Just drop in the PVC pipe suspension system, line the ATA case with a (relatively) thin layer of foam, and you are done.

The next level of sophistication is to add anchor points on the inside of the ATA case, and suspend the helicon from those, INSTEAD OF the PVC pipe.

My general feeling is that by the time we talk about Rick's suggestions, we're starting to get into an area where ATA case manufacturers can do the job better, and at comparable cost (esp. if you charge your own time against the cost). If I'm going to put *that* much time into it, I think I'd want a product that looked more like a custom molded case that hugs the shape of the helicon more closely than a shipping carton. If you do that, then you con't have to worry about filling voids - which was the primary motivation for my suspension system.

Show me how to make a custom molded clamshell, and I'll be happy to fill it with a custom designed foam system.

On TSA....what *are* the current requirements for being able to open cartons? This is probably yet another reason to aim for FedEx rather than checked baggage. But, there *are* carton-closure systems that allow for "easy open, easy close".

So, suppose I show up at an airline counter with a box that is taped shut. Will the airline accept it? If TSA wants to inspect it will they cut it open (neatly?) and re-seal? Or, are such packages simply rejected?

The nice thing about a taped-up carton is that it is "clean" - there are no protruding features to be sheared off. Handles, straps, hinges, wheels...these all tend to fall off.

So...how *do* you prepare a shipping carton for TSA inspection? [easy answer: don't take it as checked luggage!]

I've done a quick price check. Some people tout the idea of "buy the horn a seat". Looking at a typical flight, for me - I find that FedEx will deliver (end of day, 3 business days) my package for less than the cost of an airline ticket. Granted, that's quite a bit more than "free" checked baggage (or, $25/bag) - but it's not unreasonable. For a point-to-point round trip where you can afford to be without the instrument for 3 days on either end, this looks like the best bet. Next-day delivery is, of course, much more expensive. And, a "tour" of several cities where you stop in each city for only a day or two makes it infeasible to wait for 3-day deliveries.

Even so - if the TSA problem can be handled, the 3'x2'x2' box meets all of DELTA's guidelines for MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS as checked baggage. But - for reasons covered previously, checked baggage might not be your best bet if you ABSOLUTELY need it at your destination on a specific day.

[Donn]

a) How would one make a simple "box" out of this stuff?

Cut, fold, rubber-cement. It's impervious any bonding cements. Duct tape would have obvious potential. Folding is very easy in one direction, awkward in the other.

b) Assume that "large flat sides" are a bug, not a feature - is it feasible to make a "molded" case?

Sort of. It warps but doesn't stretch, the latter is the main limitation to your ambitions. Overall junky appearance can be subdued a little with some nice looking tape over the sharpish cut edges. I got mine in 4x8 (?) sheets from a printing supply place, choice of colors. It's really fairly flexible, so you can't just make a little clam-shell-ish and get stand-on-me strength.

Some people tout the idea of "buy the horn a seat".

Didn't try it, but I've read (here?) that this may come down to the discretion of the flight crew, and any prior agreement with the airline is immaterial if they decide they don't want your object sitting in a passenger seat. (I have tried "gate check", sure won't try that again.)

[sloan]

Second version. FedEx delivered 8 1.5"x36" "heavy duty" Velcro(TM) cinch straps. So, I lashed up the helicon to the corners of the PVC pipe, to see if it would fly.

Here are two images of this version:
http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/heliconCage/secondTry.jpg
http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/heliconCage/secondTry2.jpg

This looks promising. It took a bit of tweaking to get the lengths just right (it would be nice to have fixed-length straps, once I know the right lengths). The straps look *reasonably* friendly to the helicon, but perhaps it would be better to have more padding.

Attachments at the corners, and some elasticity, are provided by 8 9" "bungee ball" loops. Here's a picture:
http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/heliconCage/bungeeBall.jpg

These are great for prototyping - but I think I'd like a less elastic connection at the corner, perhaps with a metal ring (perhaps a D-ring) big enough to smoothly accomodate the cinch straps. Those should be easy enough to fabricate, either with loops that are just the right size OR with interlocking rings (one ring around each of the 3 pipes at the corner plus one ring (split ring, carabiner, snap hook) that connects them all together and serves as the anchor point?)

Standing alone, this design is very successful - I can "roll" the cage in all directions, dropping it about a foot or so on each turn, without any part of the helicon coming close to the "envelope". The 12-edge brick is not quite stable - it will need the X-bracing supplied by a shipping-carton skin. Standing alone, it has settled into a slight diamond shape - which I alleviated a bit by tweaking the tension on the cinch straps. Perhaps it is possible to use tension between diagonal corners of the 36"x36" faces to stiffen the box a bit. The 24" edges don't seem to be a problem. It would also be possible to subdivide the 36"x36" face intended to go at the BOTTOM of the shipping cargon (subdivide each edge and connect them to a CROSS connector in the center of the face). But, doing this on the TOP face would be more difflcult. One imagines being able to remove the helicon from the box WITHOUT removing the PVC pipe cage. Perhaps that's not a serious constraint.

But, that just replaces one large square with 4 smaller squares - still without any diagonal constraints. So, I doubt this would be effective. Tension from corner to corner seems more promising. Perhaps the shipping carton will provide sufficient bracing.

The cinch straps seem strong enough - I'm more worried about the bungee-ball loops.

And finally...(waste-not, want-not), I decided to try to see if I could find a good use for the 2 15"x30" cargo nets used in version 1. It turns out that they fit snugly on the 2'x3' sides. I'm not sure how to exploit this - but here's a picture:
http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/heliconCage/addMesh.jpg

Perhaps these can be used to position/constrain pieces of foam padding to cushion particularly vulnerable parts of the helicon (BEFORE dropping the assembly into the shipping carton).

I also just received a very interesting piece of webbing - it's sold as a cargo net, but it's made out of seatbelt webbing. It MIGHT fit on the 36"x36" side. That's tomorrow's task.

[tofu]

In looking at your photos it appears that the strapping around the bell exerts force on the bell in a motion only upward on the one brace that conects bell to body of horn. I wonder if that is enough pressure to cause the weld to the brace to weaken and/or fail as well as how that pressure might effect the solder where the bell joins the body upon significant impact to the container.

[sloan]

In looking at your photos it appears that the strapping around the bell exerts force on the bell in a motion only upward on the one brace that conects bell to body of horn. I wonder if that is enough pressure to cause the weld to the brace to weaken and/or fail as well as how that pressure might effect the solder where the bell joins the body upon significant impact to the container.

Yes - in later tweaking (perhaps visible in the third image) I moved those two straps. I originally thought that I would need SOME straps constrained by SOME braces - but I think that the latest version avoids that.

The current strapping in the bell area goes around the bell, and NOT the circle. I think this is OK, but I'm a bit worried about slippage. I'm not too worried about ripping the bell off the horn - but I suppose I should be.

RealSoonNow, I'll be giving my current design to an engineering student who has access to modelling systems that can tell me where the critical forces will be.

While I *think* this version is safe to ship, I might decide to add some connections between the circle and the SIDES of the box. This might involve adding members to the cage.

My favorite hard cases work by holding tight to large tubing and holding that large tubing firmly in place. I'm trying to emulate that here - but the obvious difference is that a case interior molded to fit many points on the large tubing can exert forces in all directions. My slings can only PULL on the tubing, and that may prove dangerous.

I'm still playing with ideas based on connecting the helicon (in various ways) to a separate structure, and then using something like the current design to suspend THAT structure inside the cage. One candidate for this "separate structure" is the seatbelt-webbing cargo "net" that was delivered today. It looks easy to stretch this into a nice flat wall near the center of the cage. The question then becomes: how to lash the helicon to the webbing so that it doesn't move - and so that it attaches to the helicon is exactly the right places. Holding the circle flat against the webbing is easy - preventing it from rotating is a bit harder.

I have the feeling that what I really need are a set of CLAMPS that (gently) grip the helicon and present a single attachment point. The clamps should distribute forces over as much of the large tubing as possible. This appears to mean matching the jaws of the clamps to the shape of the tubing.

Another idea is to wrap something strong around the tubing that won't slip from side to side - and attach a D-ring to that. Right now the Velcro cinch straps are wrapped around the tubing - perhaps that's asking too much of them. Ideally, I want set of fixed anchors on the tubing (provided by a removable wrap or clamp), fixed anchors at the 8 corners (that looks easy), and an adjustable strap connecting them.

[Rick Denney]

I think you've got the inner design in pretty good shape.

The cloth box with the fluted poly is really easy. Just sew a box of Cordura with one flap that can open, and install a zipper around the three open sides of that flap. Cut the fluted poly into panels shaped like the box, insert into the cloth box, and glue in place with spray adhesive. When zipped, all the panels will be locked together by the cloth, which will act as hinge joints on all corners. To remove the instrument, just unzip the flap, undo your velcro, and lift it out the open flap. You could also slide out the whole PVC frame--it doesn't have to be tied in place, especially if the cloth box fits snugly. You can then sew straps on the box, or even wrap it in a couple of suitcase belts to use as handles.

I KNOW you are clever enough to lay out a pattern that will minimize sewing.

Rick "who has tackled bigger projects than this with needle and thread (upholstery type for both in this case)" Denney

[sloan]

I think you've got the inner design in pretty good shape.

The cloth box with the fluted poly is really easy. Just sew a box of Cordura with one flap that can open, and install a zipper around the three open sides of that flap. Cut the fluted poly into panels shaped like the box, insert into the cloth box, and glue in place with spray adhesive. When zipped, all the panels will be locked together by the cloth, which will act as hinge joints on all corners. To remove the instrument, just unzip the flap, undo your velcro, and lift it out the open flap. You could also slide out the whole PVC frame--it doesn't have to be tied in place, especially if the cloth box fits snugly. You can then sew straps on the box, or even wrap it in a couple of suitcase belts to use as handles.

I KNOW you are clever enough to lay out a pattern that will minimize sewing.

Rick "who has tackled bigger projects than this with needle and thread (upholstery type for both in this case)" Denney

This idea is growing on me. Looks like it will take about 9 yards of 60" wide cordura. A quick price check says that the fabric can be had for under $100 for 17 yards. I suspect there might be some improvements that could suck up a bit more of the fabric - but the whole project can be done comfortably with one 17yd bolt. A U-shaped zipper would need to be 9' long and make two 90degree turns. The zipper path could be made easier at the cost of complicating the top "flap" (and making the exterior a bit less "clean"). Perhaps Velcro is a better fastener than a zipper? That still leaves edges that might snag. If snaggy edges are inevitable, perhaps they can be turned into a feature - consider a strap or two that could double as (light duty) handles.

Bottom line - I don't think I really know how to build the idealized version you propose - but tweaking it looks like an interesting design problem.

While we are on the topic of straps - how about internal pockets to hold the plastic sides, or better yet just a pair of bands that hold them in place.

My first attempts at simple patterns all have some sides "double covered". I wonder what advantages/disadvantages there are to having some sides doubled, WHICH sides those should be, and whether it's worth using a bit more fabric to double-cover ALL the sides.

Time to find someone with the right sewing machine equipment (and pattern-making experience)

One point raises its ugly head...given the cost of materials, and the skilled labor to do it right - the price begins to approach that of an ATA case. Granted - the ATA case will be MUCH heavier. But, will the bag be a significant improvement over the $50 bundle of shipping cartons? Each carton will have a limited lifetime, but can be easily and cheaply replaced.

I wonder if I can find a student in the Theater program - I'll bet they know someone with the equipment and skills to knock out the bag on the cheap.

[sloan]

One more point - will a Cordura bag provide the same X-bracing for the PVC pipes? Perhaps with the plastic sides installed...

[Rick Denney]

You'll need the plastic panels to provide all the bracing. X bracing works both in tension and compression, and cloth would work only in compression. Cloth can also distort in tension "on the bias".

Putting the plastic panels in relatively tight-fitting pockets is both a common approach and relatively easy if you don't mind the extra sewing. I would prefer that to straps, which I think would be fiddly and insecure.

With heavy Cordura, doubling it up is not necessary. Curdura is nylon (polyethylene) and very strong even in abrasion, unlike many polyester substitutes. Use nylon upholstery thread and a curved upholstery needle, and you can sew it by hand without that much difficulty. Most tailors would turn the pattern inside out and sew it on a machine, using a heat gun to melt the exposed inner edge enough to prevent fraying. You could then sew a liner material in place as pockets for the plastic panels.

Leather corner pads could dress it up and provide wear resistance, if you want to go fancy.

I think you'll find that a zipper is easier than Velcro in the long run, and much quieter. Just roll the edge of the Cordura over and sew the folded edge right down onto the flap of the zipper. An enclosed zipper would be unnecessary in this application, I would think.

If you built the top to move the zipper down from the corner, you only need an inch or so. That will allow the zipper to run flat but still run along the PVC pipe, and the PVC would obviate the need for panels on the small zipper flap around the edge of the lid.

You could also take two layers of Cordura cut to the same pattern, and sew them together around the plastic sheets. Then, fold it up and sew the joints. But you'll have to sew on the outside using the curved needles if you take that approach. Up to you. I've done it both ways and it works.

Rick "who could make such a thing in a weekend even without a machine" Denney

[sloan]

Time to sort out the design requirements document...

What I'm aiming for is a lightweight package suitable for handing off to FedEx, UPS, LuggageForward (check them out!) for a "date specific" delivery. Checked baggage is on the list - but far down the list.

Checked baggage introduces the requirement for someone else (i.e., TSA) to open, inspect, and repack.
For these purposes, a zippered bag looks like a good idea. But, I think I'll put that idea on hold for the time being.

The current design has a minor problem that can be addressed by cross-bracing. I think the cardboard shipping carton will be sufficient - my next line of defense will be diagonal tension elements

Penetration resistance might be increased with plastic panels - in my opinion, this is easy and cheap to do using a cardboard shipping carton. It is much easier once you construct a bag - but I don't think the expense of the bag is justified

In my experience, the OUTSIDE of baggage is the first thing to go. I like the idea of using semi-disposable, very cheap cardboard for the outside. When (not if) it is damaged, just swap it out.
It's a question of spending $8 every three trips or $100 every 25 trips.

So, the bag is a plus if going through TSA and might be a plus to help with cross-bracing. But, I don't really want to go through TSA and the need for cross-bracing is not severe (I suspect it is, in fact, non-existant).

So...I'm turning my attention back to the details of the original design.

Big questions at the moment:

a) I'd really like something like a 3" diameter ring held firmly in place as close as possible to each corner. The ideal solution would be a factory item "3-way elbow + lashing ring". Second best is a ring lashed to the 3-way elbow. I do that now with the 9" bungee-ball loops, but these are too elastic and stretch so that the ring would be too far from the corner. So...I'm looking for the best replacement for the 9" bungee-ball loops. The Boy-Scout solution is nylon cord tied into a loop (better - tied and then heat fused?). Next might be a custom length strap with a ring on each end. Best of all might be a pulley belt. Any kind of flexible, strong, inelastic loop of just the right length.

b) I'm interested in cheap modifications to standard cardboard shipping cartons that allow for multiple sealing/unsealing. It's hard to beat strapping tape (until TSA wants to open it) - but perhaps there are some ideas out there. Right now, my thoughts tend towards Velcro(TM) to hold flaps closed - PLUS light duty tape to smooth the edges. My primary concern is having something snag on a flap corner and rip the cardboard. (yes, Rick - the bag would do this; I'm simply unwilling to pay that much).

Finally - I'm so pleased with the way that the two different kinds of cargo nets I have fit into this project that I've decided to order more to complete the package. I'll stretch the lightweight 15"x30" nets on the 2'x3' sides of the box and the heavyweight (seat-belt webbing) 24"x30" webbing on the 3'x3' sides. I have half the required number now (2 lightweight, 1 heavyweight) and am about to order the rest. I can't quite articulate all the ways in which these might prove useful - but they simply LOOK perfect on the frame, so I can't resist.

one more...suppose I did want to purchase a 3'x3x'2' box (rigid, good penetration resistance, easy open/easy close). Just the shell - no goodies like interior padding, casters, handles, etc. Where should I look? How much should I expect it to WEIGH? Full ATA compliance is not necessary.

Oh...wait....Rick says he can build a bag in a weekend. Rick - how much would you charge for that? In blue.