TubeNet Commissioning Project?

[Mark]

I have heard a couple of really nice British Brass Band pieces, including one that was a solo for euphonium by Goff Richards. I would encourage you to add his name to the list of possible composers.

[Rick Denney]

I realize the need to redefine the tuba as a more versatile instrument, but let's stop to look in the rearview a minute...

One thing that hasn't changed in 50 years is that if we want a solo, we have to write it ourselves. Is it time for us to break out of that restrictive world? I think that's the question Joe is asking. I agree wholeheartedly, even though I think his list (Ligeti? Lutoslawski?!) would be too hip for the room outside of New York.

But I agree it ought to be someone with serious non-tuba credentials. For it to matter, though, it has to be something that tuba players will enjoy playing, audiences will enjoy hearing, and, most important of all, that music directors will be enthusiastic about conducting. Is there an intersection of those three domains? Sometimes I have my doubts, but it is surely true that an element in two of those domains is notoriety.

If Fred Fryburger, noted fictional tuba player (noted in our circles, but just a back-row guy to the Maestro), approaches the conductor and says, "I would like to perform the new concerto for tuba by John Anothertubaplayer," he will get a smile out of politeness and the assurance that the proposal will get "all the consideration it deserves." In other words, it will go nowhere.

Even when Mr. Fryburger approaches the Maestro with the Vaughan Williams, the Maestro will have only limited interest. After all, Vaughan Williams composed--gasp!--folk music, and furthermore he was not neurotic (horrors!), and is therefore beneath consideration in our sophisticated, cynical world. If Vaughan Williams is not notable enough to attract the interest of the Maestro, then that should tell you what sort of level will be needed. If Fred approached the conductor and said, "I've taken part in commissioning a new concerto for tuba by Steve Reich (or whatever name you like from the Maestro's A-list)", and if the work is something the Maestro thinks the audience won't hate him for conducting, then it has a much better chance of getting performed with an orchestra.

One of our break-out paths is to have performances by tuba players with big-name orchestras. We've had it on a small scale, but we are still in the novelty category. We may always be, but it will take a composer with even more notoriety than Vaughan Williams to help push us over that boundary. That means a big name.

I'd sure rather see grant money go for something like than than for buying serpents for college music lockers.

Of course, having such a composition in existance would help those academic and tuba-world composers, too, because it would legitimize the idea of composing for the tuba.

Rick "for whom Vaughan Williams is a favorite (despite the tuba concerto), but who realizes RVW is not himself at the top tier of music director ranking" Denney

[Dylan King]

I think the piece should be playable by college level musicians, but have the showmanship and fire of the greatest Ellington and Stravinsky orchestrations.

I also plan on writing this piece for two tubas, F and CC or Eb and BBb, with the small tuba as the soloist in front and the orchestra player sitting in the usual back row, playing as a section player and counter-soloist. Kind of a 2nd tuba feature along with the main solo part.

I just wanted you friends to know that I'm working on this. I don't want money or recognition, I'm just going to do it for fun, and to prove to myself that I can. If I end up getting paid someday, great.

I promise not to write in a motif from my Diet Pepsi jingle. "Let it Flow."

In the earliest stages of being "in the works." -MSM

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

[cambrook]

I think Rick is right on the money. It might be easier to think of these issues in the context of another instrument that we're not so emotionally involved in...let's say bassoon (which happens to also live up the back of the orchestra and down in the bass register) and think of how often you've seen a concert by an orchestra that featured a bassoon concerto? It probably has happened, but it is very rare

I've been involved to a small degree in the programming for our orchestra for the past few years and it's frustratingly rare to find an opportunity to get anything other than piano or violin (and perhaps cello) up the front. The reality is that the "other instrument" category is AT THE MOST 30% of a concert season, and by the time you've got past flute, oboe, clarinet, horn (and maybe trumpet) there has to be a pretty strong case to push any other instrument forward. Even if the music is fantastic, if it's by an unkown composer and it's for an "unusual" instrument the odds against it are huge.

What would be needed to make it more likely that an orchestra would program a basson (or tuba) concerto? There are lot's of factors that we assume are "givens" - the piece has to be musically worthwhile, good to listen to and of course playable by more than the best 2 tuba players in the world. However, if it's to nudge the 5th violin concerto for the season off the roster without giving some of the audience an excuse to stay home it would be very helpful if it was by a composer with profile, and preferably who didn't cause some of the "blue rinse set" to leave early for an interval drink.

[Mudman]

I've been involved to a small degree in the programming for our orchestra for the past few years and it's frustratingly rare to find an opportunity to get anything other than piano or violin (and perhaps cello) up the front. The reality is that the "other instrument" category is AT THE MOST 30% of a concert season, and by the time you've got past flute, oboe, clarinet, horn (and maybe trumpet) there has to be a pretty strong case to push any other instrument forward. Even if the music is fantastic, if it's by an unkown composer and it's for an "unusual" instrument the odds against it are huge.

When Memphis did the Tomasi Concerto for Trombone, I overheard a typical audience member saying "some instruments should just not be featured at the front of the stage."

Which is why a good piano reduction is important if we want to play big works.

[Rick Denney]

[This is a whole vicious cycle. We complain there's no music. Then when new music is presented by an 'unknown', rather than listen, we want the composer's credentials, experience, resume. etc. Not very inviting.

The problem isn't "we". We already know what we like, judging from the crowds at the tuba conferences and the lusty applause for performances that only hint at greatness.

We have good appreciation for the potential of the instrument, yet few of us have had any success at all presenting that potential outside our little circle. We are either an amusing novelty, a demonstration designed to surprise, or a very rare exception. The compositions of even big names, what few we have, too often fail to become that rare exception.

Lots of instruments have a rich repertoire of solo material, largely owing to being around much longer than the tuba. That's their good luck and our bad luck. But it's the hand we've been dealt.

Would you rather listen to The Lark Ascending, or the Tuba Concerto, from Vaughan Williams? For me, it's the former, on purely musical grounds, and setting aside my tuba loyalty.

The only tuba solo album I own that my wife is prepared to listen to is Sam Pilafian's Travelin' Light (the first one). He truly transcended the stereotype. One of my oldest friends, surely as conscripted to the cause as any non-tuba-player could be, said, in the middle of listening to that CD, "Wow! Real music!" Pat Sheridan, for all his musicality and wizardry, did not achieve either response. Why not? Because the music he chose to record fell into those first two categories. When he played the Yorkshire Ballad at the Army Conference a while back, I wish my wife had been there (it was--approximately--the music TubaRay played at our wedding). It accomplished more than any number of variations on the Carnival of Venice.

Every great composer since Palestrina has composed something for the violin. Not all those works are wonderful, and some languish in well-deserved obscurity. But it takes many great composers tackling the challenge to produce a few truly stellar works. Get one that really glows in the dark, and people stop thinking of the tuba as a tuba, and start thinking of it as music. Greatness may come from John Stevens or Richard Wagner, but I think the latter will earn an open-minded listen from most music directors. That we are loyal to the tuba cause doesn't matter to them. The music has to be transcendant, but it also has to be heard. We should also recognize that having the music heard makes it much easier for the obscure composer to get heard.

Rick "for whom the most sublime music he has heard in the last year was Gene Pokorny playing a simple hymn tune in the pedal register" Denney

[Yama861]

Interesting composers........

Eric Ewazen
Philip Glass
..... Ewald

[TheChiefofStaph]

Besides, who cares about the violin? Are we really competing with it? There's no way that we are, because it's a violin and we play the tuba. Our music competes for playing time, and it's important to remember this distinction. Perhaps we should "partner" with the violin and have a double-concert written?

I think you missed the point.. the violin has a greater repetoire in both number and quality because so many people have composed for it. When there have been literally hundreds of works written for an instrument you are bound to have a few Mendelssohn e minor or Beethoven D concertos, a bunch of medoicre stuff, and some crap. I'm not sure that the tuba has works of the former's quality, to say nothing of their stature.

Either that was insanely good, or you're insane. I would bank on the 'you',

Could be, but when I want to be truly moved by music I don't necessarily go for the Nimrod or a Mahler second movement. Point being, being good/sublime/emotionally satisfying/whatever you want to call it doesn't have to be complex harmonically, melodically, or rhythmically. I think we do a great disservice to the general public (who we'd like to see more of at our concert perhaps?) by assuming they won't feel a reaction to something as simple as a Chopin etude because it's so easy and simple.

But, you know, that's just my opinion...

[Mark N.]

Many seem to want to know what type of piece and how playable it is before supporting such a project. Others try to speculate on what music directors think or not think. (BTW, RVW may not be Mozart in the minds of the conductors I work with and know, but he is highly respected!) Some just want to another work out there that can represent the tuba well in the audience's and musician's eyes.

I guess I am more in the camp of the latter, but because you are willing to take on the task of of creating something that benefits us all, count me in. I can't give a whole lot of money towards this, but I'll try to do my part. That was the important thing I think you needed to know. Even if the piece isn't what I want, I'll give my small contribution to the "cause."

Having said the important thing, here's my brief opinion....

Getting a well-known, creative yet mostly tonal, impassioned composer would excite me the most. Without considering money, I would be anxious to hear a John Adams Concerto. (No problem getting a high-level orchestra to program that one, he has lots of connections and he'll want to hear it. And getting "played" is about connections!) Corigliano is another composer that would make me travel far to the premiere.

As far as style and level, I agree with you in wanting to get a composition that connects to the audience, but isn't a novelty piece. Orchestras are looking for the same type of pieces.

I don't care how hard or easy it is, I just want to hear (and possibly play) a work that is well-crafted, full of soul, and meaningful to the hearers and the players. And I don't mean it to be for everyone....I much rather hear a piece that dares to be great rather than settle to be accepted. If it's a work that needs to be overly difficult to achieve this, I don't care. I'll listen to the best players in the world perform it and know that we have a great work of substance that makes us all proud. Besides, what may be considered difficult now may not be considered so difficult later. (Encounters II wasn't supposed to be performed on undergraduate recitals!!! Remember!) If it is tuneful and beautiful in its simplicity, that's terrific too. More than likely, it'll be somewhere in between. (That way too many people will only think they can play it well. Me included.)

As far as contacting composers, in my experience, just call them. Almost no composer I know of has an unlisted number. Most have a website and the really big ones may have an agent. But they want to be called! If you know someone who knows him/her, terrific, it will speed things up. If not, a call is the first step. Some charge by minute of composition, some by flat-rates based on type of composition, some may want to let you know once they get into it a little. I would allow a couple of years for the busy guys. Also, if you have a premiere soloist in mind, I would get that person and the composer together early on. Most composers I know really want to talk to the performer.

Just some thoughts. I'm in, no matter what at this point. Thanks for the idea and the future work.

Mark

[Rick Denney]

Besides, who cares about the violin? Are we really competing with it? There's no way that we are, because it's a violin and we play the tuba.

Yes, we are competing against the violin. I played in a Civil War Reenactment band when I lived in Dallas. There were a couple of the guys who wanted us to play period instruments. I thought it would be an interesting novelty, but for the most part I thought we should stick with modern instruments. Why? Because the people listening to us had been listening to the Canadian Brass in the car on the way to the reenactment. Those ladies in the Symphonoy League, and the conductor who ignores them at his peril, will be comparing what we do to the violin and piano solo works that they love. We have to move them just as much, if not more. And it takes considerable effort just to get that first hearing. If we set a lower standard than the violinists sustain, we will not get the respect we are discussing.

Whether or not Mahler wrote a violin concerto, my point stands: It takes more than one (or three) top-name composers writing works to create a viable repertoire, or even to produce one work of truly startling quality. Frankly, I like the Gregson (when accompanied by orchestra) much better than the Vaughan Williams, and that's from a person who in another recent thread listed a Vaughan Williams symphony as the one recording he would want in the absence of all others. But the Gregson has only been recorded once with orchestra (and not a big-name orchestra), and I've never heard it live. The only reason the Vaughan Williams has been recorded several times and gets performed once in a while is because the name in the corner is Ralph Vaughan Williams--a name musical people outside the tuba world have at least heard.

Either that [Gene Pokorny's playing of the hymn tune in the pedal register] was insanely good, or you're insane. I would bank on the 'you', and so would most people who aren't tubaists. People laugh at us when we play quickly or lowly, and aren't really open to a sublime experience. The answer to this (in my opinion) is exposure. I remember the first time when I saw a violinist in my youth orchestra playing something very quick (when I didn't know anything) and I laughed. It was funny. Now I'm used to it. Start playing and stop whining.

Gee whiz! Don't take this so personally. As long as we look at ourselves as tubists, we will never rise to the standard the rest of the world puts on violin players. Even though I meant that Gene's performance was the best tuba music I heard, it is still among the best music I heard period. It was not in the least funny, nor was it a novelty. It was not intended to surprise, but to move. It was astonishingly beautiful, and it opened a whole new range of possibilities. I heard the same thing on Gene's recording of a Bach Flute Sonata. Why is it that a transcription of Bach (or of a time-tested hymn tune) evokes a more musically artistic response (at least in this listener) than the Vaughan Williams? It's because it is better music. Let us recognize that with few exceptions there is a reason why the great composers are great, and the good composers are merely good. And that is central to this discussion.

Are we, as tuba players, content to be only good? Or will we seek greatness? I gathered from Sean's proposal that it was greatness he was seeking. But he also said he wanted it to become an important part of the repertoire. Is that the tuba repertoire, or the musical repertoire? If it's the latter, it will have to be played outside of tuba conferences. That takes some strategic thinking because we are coming from a long way behind. I'm sorry if that upsets you. It's not whining, it's being honest.

Rick "calling it like he sees it" Denney

[Tubadork]

Woo Hoo!
Go Rick, Go Rick!
sorry, but if the performance of Gene Pokorny's playing is the one from last years DC tuba convention that he referrs to as one of his great musical moments I'll have to second that. I sat and listened to Gene play simple tunes in his masterclass and I just loved it. In fact i ran back to the practice room thinking "Golly, I wanna do that! And better yet, sound like that."
hmmm..... maybe that's why I am THE TUBADORK!
and to back up Doc $20 would be an amazing start considering how many people read this board.
And to be honest if this piece isn't playable by us mere tuba mortals, it will be by the next generation and I do not think that there is anything better that we can do as players, teachers and educators than to promote the future welfare of those who will tread the same road that we did, but will have less brush to clear.
Bill Pritchard

[Philip Jensen]

I think that exposure is the key, and having a well known composer's name at the top would definitely make a difference. However, let's not leave out the all important premier!

If we could also line up one of the top (10) orchestral players and their respective orchestra to do the premier that certainly would raise a few eyebrows.

This might also help entice a composer, knowing that the work is going to be performed by a premier group. That's got to be more exciting, as the others have said, than writing something that is going to be premiered at a tuba conference and then hopefully picked up later by more eminent groups to play. A composer who's truely excited about the project will more likely produce the desired results.

This may be more difficult, but what is being proposed is something hopefully revolutionary for the tuba's reputation.

Heck with $20, I'd contribute $100. With 100 donors, that'd be 10G!

[Matt G]

Rick "for whom the most sublime music he has heard in the last year was Gene Pokorny playing a simple hymn tune in the pedal register" Denney

Either that was insanely good, or you're insane. I would bank on the 'you', and so would most people who aren't tubaists. People laugh at us when we play quickly or lowly, and aren't really open to a sublime experience. The answer to this (in my opinion) is exposure. I remember the first time when I saw a violinist in my youth orchestra playing something very quick (when I didn't know anything) and I laughed. It was funny. Now I'm used to it. Start playing and stop whining.

You, Mandrake, are wrong. My wife, a very amateur musician and clarinet player, heard that performance live as did I. It was the only that she was totally engrossed in anything that went on that weekend. I don't blame her either. We heard a lot of good "tuba" music, but Gene was playing music. Not meant to be a slight to anyone else, but Gene was on a totally different level. Chalk it up to age experience, exposure, three stooges, whatever, but he was fantastic. And that simple hymn tune from "Gettysburg" was breathtaking. I think it may still be archived on the Army website.

Now, for the composition, I would also agree that it needs to carry a name that guarantees two things: quality and recognition. The composer must be able to transcend academia and into the professional music world. I would argue that a good composer would have the chops to write good music that doesn't require a blur of 16th notes every other line. However, it is gonna take a lot of money, a whole lot of money, to get a piece by a pre-eminent composer.

There have been good lists so far. Now it needs to be whittled down. I would propose that a quasi-committee be formed to select or recommend a composer to Sean after the composers were fully researched and all costs, amount of time needed, and interest were determined. At that point we could chip in and establish a fund to pay for the work.

[Normal]

As I read the previous posts, I am torn between the purpose of a commissioned piece being a premier tuba piece (in the classical vein) or a more popular piece that would catch the ears of a larger audience (more a Pops type of piece).

As a tuba novice, I would like to have a great showcase piece for the instrument. Something that would elevate the tuba's esteem within the classical world (wishful thinking?). The question though about the value of Tuba Christmas brings another element into my mind. I know many people that first came to Tuba Christmas because of the novelty of seeing a bunch of oom pah players playing Christmas music. These same people have come away astounded that that much brass can actually play good sounding music. In this case the novelty brings them in, the musicality brings them back. I'm thinking that a more popular piece would get people listening. It is also possible that a very good composer could be inspired by the popularity and write something great for tuba. Great music has to be composed by an inspired composer as well as a talented music writer.

I just had the opportunity to play de Meij's Wind in the Willows. It was fun after the performance to hear someone "whistling" one of the tuba riffs. I have also had fun recently playing some of Randy Newman's popular stuff on tuba. Maybe one of these two should be considered.

Time to stop with the random thoughts.

[Chuck(G)]

Sigh. I just don't know.

There are lots of sonatas and such for double bass by some really top-notch composers. And bass is much more of a mainline instrument than is the tuba (it regularly gets used in everything from symphony to bluegrass and jazz).

How many CDs of Bottesini or Dragonetti or Koussevitsky works for bass do you own? I've got several (more than I have solo tuba recordings), but only because I own and play bass. If I didn't, I couldn't say that I'd own any.

Would I think of the bass as a serious instrument if I didn't play one? Of course--it's easy enough to see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears the function it serves. Would a solo work make me think that it was if I didn't already think so? I doubt it.

So what is this commission by a "serious and important" composer for the tuba supposed to do?

[Normal]

How about another thought that would promote the tuba as a musical instrument, but maybe not a solo piece? The world could use a tuba ensemble playing patriotic type music. I was thinking maybe a sextet with music being written/arranged by the likes of Peter Schickele. This would mix the musical traits of the tuba with some fun. I would think it would be written at the grade 5 level so it could be played in other venues. The first arrangement could be written for Pops Orchestra accompaniment so it could be debuted by the Boston Pops during the 4th of July. It could also be arranged with wind ensemble and brass band accompaniment for others of us.

[TonyZ]

Get:
John Corigliano
Christopher Rouse
Michael Torke
Michael Colgrass
John Adams
John Luther Adams
Alex Shapiro
These are the cats that are the "Beethovens" of the day!

All of your criteria will be met. Expensive, yes. Worth it: DEFINITELY yes.

[NeilMacQuarrie]

How about a composer who plays tuba?

David Gillingham......

http://www.gillinghammusic.com/

• Used to play the euph, as far as I've heard
  "Young" american composer.
  Lots of imagination.
  Wrote a great basstbn sonata among other things including a trio for tuba, euph and piano.
  Some of you likely know this fellow from the world of wind band.

that's it for me,

happy holidays.

N.

[Art Hovey]

I am ready to chip in my $20.
It seems to me that a lot of fine composers have been suggested, but possibly none of them will win unanimous approval from this group. There's hurdle number one.
Challenge number two is achieving recognition as serious music without being so difficult to play (and to listen to) that it only gets played once. My vote would be for something that would be played by every town band and amateur orchestra in the world because it sounds great and plays itself. Accomplishing that without being trite calls for real genius. Recognizing such genius in advance seems to be even more challenging.

[Art Hovey]

Seems to me that the most important thing is to choose someone who can create unforgettable melodic material. Bobo picked Roger Kellaway, and the results were marvelous.
Where were we when Duke Ellington was in his prime? Who can fill those shoes today?