Jin Bao F (?) contrabass trombone!!!

[Bob Kolada]

Check it out!!
http://jinbaomusic.en.alibaba.com/produ ... mbone.html
Sorry, I can't seem to get a picture to post here.

Mininum Order Quantity: 5 piece/pieces
Price: FOB Xingang, Tianjin USD 1100-1400
.......
Delivery Time: 45 days after we receive the down payment
Payment Terms: T/T
Supply Ability: 5 Piece/Pieces per Day

Anyone else want to get one of these? Even with some possibly necessary work and a bag, it's still looking like 3 grand for a double valve F contra.

[Bob Kolada]

Fair enough! But it seems that Jin Bao/Schiller (Tuba Exchange/M&M/...) is the same "brand". And I think this is the horn mentioned here-
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37795

[Cameron Gates]

Fair enough! But it seems that Jin Bao/Schiller (Tuba Exchange/M&M/...) is the same "brand". And I think this is the horn mentioned here-
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37795

Yes, I believe that is the same instrument. I own it. I play it. I am constantly working on it.

The Elephant's words are basically right on.

It may say $1500, but be prepared to write a big check to get it up to "reliable" status. However, as I told Bob, right out of the box this horn makes one hell of a noise maker for athletic events. No way the opposing team hits a game-winning free throw with this in your hands.

[sugawi]

Fair enough! But it seems that Jin Bao/Schiller (Tuba Exchange/M&M/...) is the same "brand".

That's right. Here is M&M:

[Barney]

Fair enough! But it seems that Jin Bao/Schiller (Tuba Exchange/M&M/...) is the same "brand". And I think this is the horn mentioned here-
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37795

Yes, I believe that is the same instrument. I own it. I play it. I am constantly working on it.

The Elephant's words are basically right on.

Interesting.

I was with the Elephant all the way... until recently when these 186 clones came out. I have no idea how the Jinbao company operates, but those tubas are really quite good. I've played a Dillon, a Schiller (from Laabs) and a JZ (at BBC), all clearly from the same factory, and all mechanically sound. Enough forum members have bought these, and used them for months, that if the valves started seizing after a short time, we would be hearing about it.

Having said that, I bought a Jinbao produced alto trombone about 3 years ago (I couldn't resist at just over a hundred dollars with shipping). The slide was horrendous out of the box. It was like they never buffed the inside of the outer slide tubes. After getting that resolved, the slide is decent (as is the horn, overall). My question to Cameron is, you've mentioned valve trouble, but how is the handslide on that contrabass? I would think, with the extra long tubes on a trombone in F, it could be a disaster. On the other hand, if the slide is good, it might be one indicator that Jinbao is STARTING to figure things out.

[Cameron Gates]

The slide is basically OK. The inner tubes look the part with normal looking plating (unlike some of the "Selman" products) and darn fine compression. The problem with this slide, like all other F contras, is the outer slides. The standard set of slide mandrels I have from Ferrees (up to a 12) does not approach the bore of the slide. The largest, a 12, is usable, but a little short when held in a vice. I would like to disassemble the outer tubes from the crook and tap out the imperections in the lower part of the tubes, however the crook has a VERY delicate water key mechanism with a hidden spring that would have to be removed. Chances are it would never work again upon disassembly. It is operated via a housed cable that is soldered to the upstream slide tube. I would guess that Thein uses this waterkey idea due to the fact (IMO) that this thing is a direct ripoff of a Thein model. I know I have seen this system on the Haag cimbasso that Hornguys has. The Haag system is a work of art that will probably last the life of the horn. This copy?????? Time will tell. The connector hardware looks good and so far performs well. Here are some pics of the WK assembly. Please excuse the poor quality of the phone pics:





The German ripoff altos that I have seen are much easier to get up to good playing condition than this thing.

The valves are what we thought they were. Copies. The original triggers are a big joke. I am still messing around with the proper placement of these, but I have rebuilt every part of the triggers and have trashed the originals. These work much better. Here is a pic. I have yet to finalize the placement of the lower trigger so I have not buffed the nickel.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Well put.

D.

[Donn]

And I am still leery of purchasing from any company (like many of these Chinese ones) who have trouble telling you what city, plant, address, etc. are in the past of your instrument.

The Schiller stuff I'm seeing bears the name "American Heritage". I suppose modern American business practices may be what they inherited.

[Cameron Gates]

IMO Bloke is dead on. Although I have not seen a lot of Jin Bao stuff come through the shop that I can remember, I would have to say that this contrabass trombone is a step in the right direction. Aside from the valves' fit and finish (from lapping and outside color buffing of the casings) and the 3rd world HORRIBLE trigger system, this horn is put together pretty well.

It has a removable bell that had 2 very chinese-y looking chrome plated screws. I just retapped the holes and put good ol' UMI generic tenon/gooseneck (ala Bach) screws in place. They work well and look the part much more. The three tuning slides on the bell section all have nickel inner tubes and were fitting and moving well out of the box. The tuning slide alignment on the bell section required a brace to be altered, but now that it is the alignment is great.

IMO the handslide is fine. Of the grand total of 4 other (German) contas that I have played, this slide feels and acts about middle of the pack (the Kanstul gets the nod as best, although it was a new horn). As I said above, the inner tubes are very nice and the outer tubes I believe will function well as long as there is no major damage (very thin metal and complicated crook/waterkey).

I do wish I had more experience on the "legit" contras to offer an opinion on playing characteristics, however I do believe that at the very least this fine Jin Bao product is 80% of what an $18,000 Thein is due to the fact that it appears to be a direct copy right down to the bore size and pointless decorations like the spike on the bottom of the valve tuning slide crooks.

The contrabass trombone is a simple machine that really has only two speeds: off and flame thrower. If all the joints are tight and the bore is an exact match of a real horn, how could the Thein be far superior to the 3rd world metric version? Metal thickness?......on a contra........pppphhhhhhhtttttt. Aim, kill.

[Donn]

The Schiller stuff I'm seeing bears the name "American Heritage". I suppose modern American business practices may be what they inherited.

Which American (or American business) are you referring to specifically?

...mine...?? Dan Oberloh's...?? Kellogg's of Battle Creek...?? John Deere...?? AT&T...?? the one that employs you...??

"Modern", I said.

were I a band director, I believe I would rather have my students playing those $175 SAM'S CLUB trumpets (as they are playable and feature functional alignment and tolerances) than some of the beginner model Conn trumpets (assuming rarely played condition) made in Elkhart, Indiana in the 1960's - or in Arizexico in the 1990's.

Now you're getting close. Conn, King, Holton, Martin - oh, wait, are they American businesses, or just names, waiting to be sold to another buyer for a few shekels like Olds? Does it make any difference? Who knows?

[tubaforce]

Tuba MM claims to be the "factory", Dillon Music Concedes that two of their Tubas are "probably" Jin-Bao's, Tuba Exchange sells them also! I went to Alibaba.com, and found ALL the axes the afore-mentioned companies sell, except for the 641 clone at Dillons! Two factories, Jin-Bao and XuQiu, list almost the same inventories of Tubas! I know that XuQiu is a sister factory to Sonor China, and I'm snagging a set of maple tubs for my studio for a song! I imagine the cymbals will be trash, but I've seen some of their drums in person, and was impressed! The Chinese Tubas I've tried have been good or terrible! I would recommend buying via a middleman(found at Alibaba, or other sites), or just forgetting about the "savings", and buy from one of the companies already importing! Then at least you'll have a warranty in case of disaster! I wasn't able to nail down MM on where I could try out their axes, but Vince(T.E.) and Matt(Dillon) were happy to invite me! Good luck! And happy hunting!

[bisontuba]

HI-
M&M is in Ft. Lauderdale, FL--contact Michael at: 9360 N.W. 18th Drive
Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33322--Tel: (954) 723-0026--Fax: (954) 723-0021--Email: tubamlb@aol.com" target="_blank

BTW, Buffalo Philharmonic is on tour in Florida end of this week and next week--Don Harry and bass trombonist Jeff Dees will both, I believe, be going to M&M this Saturday to check out instruments (the Orch is playing in Lauderdale Friday night).

Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

[Bob Kolada]

BTW, Buffalo Philharmonic is on tour in Florida end of this week and next week--Don Harry and bass trombonist Jeff Dees will both, I believe, be going to M&M this Friday to check out instruments (the Orch is playing in Lauderdale Friday night).

Cool! Please keep us updated!

[Mcordon1]

I'm seriously thinking of buying the Schiller/Jin Bao double-rotor bass trombone. $585 seems worth it. Their single rotor bass is the same price, which is confusing...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Schiller-American-H ... 414db0487b" target="_blank

[Bob Kolada]

I'm seriously thinking of buying the Schiller/Jin Bao double-rotor bass trombone. $585 seems worth it.

I've also been considering it, even though I really don't need 2 basses!
There is a guy on the trombone forum who has one (marked Fasch, I believe) for a few years and likes his.
FWIW, it appears to be a copy of a newer King 7B (older ones have a different bell brace and possibly some other differences as well).

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I did get a text message from Don Harry while he and the Bflo. Phil. are on tour in Florida--he did contact M&M and they are sold out of all the contra-bass trombones (they are a hot item)-they hopefully will have more come in before ITEC (I think they will be showing at ITEC-M&M).
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

[Bob Kolada]

Cameron, how long is the slide on yours? I know a guy with an Thein F, and he says the inners are about 4" shorter than the outers. Though I don't know if it's the long slide or short slide model (haven't seen it yet!)...
I see Ferguson's has at least one of the Kanstuls at $6200. Tempting....

[Cameron Gates]

Cameron, how long is the slide on yours? I know a guy with an Thein F, and he says the inners are about 4" shorter than the outers. Though I don't know if it's the long slide or short slide model (haven't seen it yet!)...
I see Ferguson's has at least one of the Kanstuls at $6200. Tempting....

I finally had time to look today and, like the Thein it copied, the inners are about 4 inches shorter than the outers. I have no problem with it due to the fact that my arms are not close to being long enough to get near the end of the inners. The longest slide position on the horn with this valve configuration is about where a 7th position is on a bass trombone. That note, Low F#, is pretty easy to reach. The other note that is out there is B (with short valve) and it is in tune a little further in.

I suppose that a rotating handle could be put on and a longer position could be had, but why monkey around with that when the valves are a lot easier way to go? Also, there really is no timbre differences between open and valved notes. I think this is really a good valve set up.

[Bob Kolada]

That's kind of a bummer, although I suppose one could get one of these without a slide at all and get a handslide built (which would fix any stock issues like the waterkey, alignment, leadpipe,...). Are the outers Bartok long?
When I was looking into getting a new slide for my old horn, I got a baseline quote of about $800.
With a 7' wingspan I'm probably looking at this differently than other people.

[Bob Kolada]

Or, even easier and 95% as effective- use an "unfashionable" dependent Bb/F/E bass trombone.