St. Pete or Miraphone

[iiipopes]

Now, that said, if you want a really dark tone, the wide throat/small rim 16 1/2 inch bell does that in spades.

Sounds like Germans made a perfect horn for me! The question is what do you like or need?

Um, you mean the Russians?!

I guess I misunderstood. I thought that wide throat/small rim 16 1/2 inch bell refers to early 186 Mirafone. Personally I would go with used German or Czech horn before I would get Russian one.

Well, you're at least half right. My 186 is the detachable bell variant, which came stock with a 20 inch recording bell that was aimed at the American market to compete with the King, Conn, Martin, and Reynolds recording bell tubas. It does that very well. Tuba Exchange had retrofitted an upright BBb St Pete bell with the tenon so I could have either/or once I got a second tenon for the recording bell.

This has demonstrated to me that the bell taper, throat, and bell flare have more to do with overall tone than about anything else. So my Miraphone with the St Pete upright bell is a lot darker than the older Miraphone 16 1/2 inch "stovepipe" bell.

There are two guys I play with in community band who also have 186's. One is old, like mine, and has the stock old traditional 16 1/2 inch "stovepipe" bell. Good intonation, but can get edgey if you push it too hard. Not dark. The nature of the geometry of the bell is that it gets the tone way out front to the audience and the player doesn't hear much.

The other guy has a newer 17 3/4 inch bell, which has a similar throat, but a wider, more "American" flare. This particular bell sounds to me, if you can follow this analogy, as if the Bach 37 trumpet bell were made in a tuba rendition: good tone, good projection, broad tone, not too dark, not too bright. It is a really "vanilla" tone, that some people don't care for, but will blend with anything, so it is good to have it in a concert band section.

So, if you're wanting dark and cheap, a St Pete will do. If you're wanting dark and rich, with unmistakable character, then an Alex is still the way to go. My 186 with the St Pete bell is the sonic equivalent of the middle of the road Hershey's dark chocolate. It doesn't have the price tag or the "85% cacao" imported label, and therefore it does lack a shade of complexity, but it still has a character that is noticeably different and for the most part preferential to the run-of-the-mill overly sweetened milk chocolate bar tone of a lot of inexpensive tubas.

Yes, my wife and I are still eating leftover Valentine's Day candy. Together.

[scottw]

"To be told, basically, to go out and do your research before asking question seems, well, rude."
I couldn't have said that any better myself, at least the first part. It is always a good idea to research something for oneself, instead of having someone else do it for you. By becoming familiar with a topic--whatever it may be--before framing a clear and lucid question to a forum such as this will greatly enhance the experience of all involved. In that way, we avoid the Wiki-type answers and can engage in intelligent discussion. You disagree, and that is fine,too. I have said what I need to, so I'm moving on. I humbly suggest you avoid a flame war, too. It ain't worth it!8)

[Neil Bliss]

Having owned both, I'd go for the Miraphone given a choice in the matter.

[Tabor]

To be fair, I haven't played a St. Pete, but I am consistently impressed by the way my mirafone 186 is put together. It has a good scale, a nice sound for most applications and is well-built.

[kingconn]

Depends if you're talking BBb or CC. I think the 186 BBb is a much better instrument than the 186 CC. The mirafone is a well built horn. The Russians are getting better but trying to compete with mirafone on quality is a tall order. I really like the sound of the St.Petes though. If you're talking CC I'll take a St. Pete over any 186 or 188 Ive ever played to be a more playable and enjoyable instrument. This being said, I've played only a few St.Pete CC's so I can't say to the consistency of the product line as a whole. Mirafone is pretty consistent but sure played the best 186 CC and the absolute worst 186 CC whose serial numbers were 1 digit apart.

[miketank09]

I have another question...

What's the big difference between a CC tuba and a BBb tuba(besides the fingering). Most people push CC tubas to be better but no one has really told me why. Can some one explain to me?

[miketank09]

Not just with St. Pete or Mira but in general with all horns, is there a quality difference between a BBb and a CC horn.

Just for example, if i was looking at a Miraphone 1291 BBb and a 186CC, is the CC horn better just because its in C or does it just depend on the horn?

[tuba kitchen]

miraphone: in any case Bb or C

[ekwjr]

If you can swing it buy a Miraphone. I have a St. Pete 209N CC, and I have had nuermerous issues with it. That said, it still plays pretty well. I am having some compression issues, the slides all seem to leak a little, and I have tried just about all the slide grease available. Also, the finish has deteriorated down to bare brass in places, and the horn is not even a year old! Have had key, and valve problems also. The brass is thin, and dents very easily.

Tuba exchange has stood behind their lifetime warranty, and I have used it several times already!

Get a Miraphone 188 if your looking for a rotary CC for a decent price. As the others have said, you get what you pay for!
As soon as I sell my motorcycle, I am going to buy a new Miraphone 188.

[Schielke60]

For a long time I've had this debate with myself between St Pete, Chinese, or used Mirafone equipment.
I just bought a very nice old 5valve 186CC that is just a fabulous instrument. The price was right, the pitch is good and it looks as though this instrument belonged to someone who really played it a lot and loved it at the same time.

I vote for the Mirafone,,,,it's pretty hard to go wrong with one.

[tubaforce]

Hello again, lads and ladies! I am following all the chatter with great interest, as I am about to buy 2 186 CC Miraphone copies for my girls! I recently had the pleasure of playing on a 40-year old 5-valve 186CC, and it SANG! It had the smaller bell, but didn't break up as easily as my Cerveny, and pianissimo was almost as powerful as a 24-J! Having said that, I will be buying 2 Jin-Bao's this June, as I can't justify fixing a used Miraphone(or Cerveny), or paying 5-9 grand for a new axe! I love the way ST.Pete 202's sound! IMHO, the timbre is like a 187, not any where near as bright as a 186! I haven't had the opportunity to audition a 209, but 2 of them are beyond my budget anyway!
One thing is sure, there are viable Tubas available in all price ranges now, and that should push the Swiss and German makers harder to stay "ahead".

[caseys186]

I think the tech improvements in modern Tuba designs are very signifigant. You should check out as many as you can. I love my 186, but there are a LOT of quality horns out there!

[Lew]

You have received a lot of good answers to your question, and yes, this is one that seems to come up a lot. While the term "better" is somewhat ambiguous, Miraphones generally are better built instruments than St. Pete in just about every way. Their construction is more consistent, they use better materials, and their assembly quality is better. However, you will pay a premium price for those characteristics. Some find the St. Pete to play perfectly well for their needs. I have never liked the ones that I have tried, finding them to not have the breadth of sound that most miraphones do. Others have said that they prefer the sound and playability of St. Petes. A lot of it really is personal preference. For me, miraphones would definitely be worth the premium for playability alone, not even considering durability. They really are different animals. Even the CC St. Pete, which is supposed to be geared towards a higher end customer than the BBb is really more of a student quality horn, while I would consider a miraphone to be professional quality. Which is best for you depends on how you plan to use it and how it plays for you. If money is a big issue, then the St. Pete can be a way to get a reasonable tuba for a relatively low price. However, if I were in the market for a tuba I would rather find a good used miraphone than buy a new St. Pete.