I've seen this story before...

The bulk of the musical talk
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Toad Away
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Toad Away »

bloke wrote:
I must completely agree with the point that sociology is a lot of whooie. It is a faux science that was primarily created by three men

- Max Weber
- Émile Durkheim
- Karl Marx

to push an all-too-obvious and devastatingly-destructive agenda.

Moreover, the "study" of "sociology" is, arguably, THE most toxic discipline that has been shoehorned into American (as well as worldwide) colleges and universities. Impressionable "blank slates" (via their hapless parents) enter into these classes with reasonably sane thought processes and exit these courses of study replete with mental disorders. If you doubt this in the least (and happen to live in a university town), just keep your eyes open for letters to the editor in your newspaper sent in by sociology major graduate students who are eagerly trying out their newly-found wings of misplaced anger and insanity.
Well said!
Thanks
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by tubaguy9 »

bloke wrote:Another mentor said, *"The communists and socialists forget that our basic nature is to be both selfish and altruistic -- not just altruistic -- and the challenge is to find the right balance between the two."
Way too true...I think that's what people are trying to find in this world. I think when you can finally find the happy medium instated by the government of a country, you will have an almost Utopian society. I don't think any country really has found how to really instate this idea. And I don't know if there really is such a way, because every person is different and to cater to every person in a country is impossible. Because there are near 7,000,000,000 people in the world, divided by MAYBE 1,000 countries, if it was divided evenly, that'd mean 7,000,000 per country. It'd be impossible to watch every person and keep them happy at the same time.
I think I might end up as a grumpy old man when I get old...
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Rick Denney »

tubaguy9 wrote:It'd be impossible to watch every person and keep them happy at the same time.
The keeping them happy part is the impossible bit. Watching them is much easier.

But happiness is up to each person. History abounds with examples of people who were happy in desperate conditions, and with people who are miserable in the face of abundance. But history is also replete with those who manage to be happy even when rich, and other who are poor and miserable. The only conclusion one can draw is that happiness is ultimately unrelated to wealth.

This is a popular point for those who want to increase what is taken from those who are rich (by whatever means). They insist that those riches are not the key to happiness, and therefore not a right of those who have attained them. I've heard a number of stories on NPR lately emphasizing this point. But then they prove just how much they disbelieve that argument by giving those riches to the poor, some of whom were happy without it and some who will still be miserable with it. They declare that some minimum standard of wealth is necessary to free a person to pursue happiness, but in fact they keep raising that standard higher and higher, again demonstrating that they don't really believe their own thesis that happiness and wealth are unrelated. When people they define as too poverty-stricken to be able to pursue happiness have stomachs full to overflowing, cars, color televisions, cell phones, clean running water, sewer service, air conditioning, and the sorts of luxuries that would be considered obscene wealth in many parts of the world, one has to suspect that their motive is different than what they say it is.

Accomplishment brings a sense of satisfaction that is a common characteristic among happy people. People are happier when they feel as though their life makes a difference, and unhappy when they feel disempowered to make a difference. (It should be noted that this is true whether they actually want to make a difference or not, leading to the inescapable conclusion that many people just want to be unhappy.) Taking wealth from some and giving it to others tells the former group that their accomplishment has no value and tells the latter than the wealth they are about to receive requires no accomplishment. This undermines the motivation and sense of accomplishment of both groups. If there is one thing that emerges from the communist experiments of the last 100 years, it is that "from each according to his abilities, and to each according to his needs" is a recipe for misery and poverty (enforced by totalitarian statism).

The only conclusion I can draw is that people are responsible for their own happiness. As anyone who has been in a mismatched relationship can tell you, you can't make someone else happy. The more you try, the more it doesn't work and the more likely both will end up unhappy. Government tries hard to make people happy, instead of empowering them to pursue their own happiness and then leaving them alone. This was where the founders truly understood the human condition. They believed that government's role was to get out of the way and let people attain happiness according to their own definition--or not--as they chose.

As soon as we try to make other people happy, the first thing that happens is that we are defining their happiness for them, according to our own definition. And given that happiness defies definition based on circumstances, and given that circumstances are the only thing we can change, we are doomed to fail ultimately. But that failure can take other things down with it, including our ability and drive (perhaps based on necessity) to create more wealth. The people we are trying to make happy end up still unhappy, and the rich people we expected to pay for it merely ended up less rich and less motivated to continue funding our program.

Imposing art on the unartistic is one example. Many people find that art, both as creators and as receivers, is a key part of their own happiness formula. Some of those people believe that because it works for them, it will work for everyone, so they seek to impose mechanisms by which art becomes institutionalized and forced onto the masses. This is a form of paternalism that is actually quite arrogant, based as it is on the notion that the "cultured" who demand it believe that culture causes culture, rather than culture being the outgrowth of wealth, general education, and the pursuit of happiness. Not even Joshua Bell can make people like a violin performance of Bach, let alone force them to stop to listen to it when they are in the middle of fulfilling other responsibilities. Using that as an excuse to demean those people as unable to appreciate beauty is another example of that paternalistic arrogance.

Rick "end of rant" Denney
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by windshieldbug »

Rick Denney wrote:Imposing art on the [inartistic] is one example.
I, for one, think it is simpler than this. Art requires communication and communication at the height of a rush hour is damn near impossible. The ability of the intended "recipients" to comprehend it doesn't even enter into it.

Look! I came here for an argument.
Oh! I'm sorry, this is abuse.
Oh I see, that explains it.
No, you want room 12A next door.
I see - sorry. (exits)
Not at all. (as he goes) Stupid git.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Donn »

(Trying to ignore the lengthy exposition of blokesian `every man for himself' suburban politics ...)
Rick Denney wrote: Imposing art on the unartistic is one example. Many people find that art, both as creators and as receivers, is a key part of their own happiness formula. Some of those people believe that because it works for them, it will work for everyone, so they seek to impose mechanisms by which art becomes institutionalized and forced onto the masses. This is a form of paternalism that is actually quite arrogant, based as it is on the notion that the "cultured" who demand it believe that culture causes culture, rather than culture being the outgrowth of wealth, general education, and the pursuit of happiness. Not even Joshua Bell can make people like a violin performance of Bach, let alone force them to stop to listen to it when they are in the middle of fulfilling other responsibilities. Using that as an excuse to demean those people as unable to appreciate beauty is another example of that paternalistic arrogance.
My guess is that they picked the Bach violin partitas hoping that they would be universally appealing - not pop, but pretty accessible. To newspaper readers, at any rate - I mean, if you read the article and think `glad I wasn't there, to have those arrogant _____s force Bach partitas down my throat!', then you're not reading it the way most did, I think.

It's too bad it takes so long for people to work up a head of outrage over this supposed arrogance. If the reporter could have interviewed a few people and gotten stuff like this out of them, I'm sure it would have been an even more entertaining article, but unfortunately it seems one has to stew over the ill-treatment of the poor subway commuters for some time before this resentment finds expression.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Rick Denney »

Donn wrote:(Trying to ignore the lengthy exposition of blokesian `every man for himself' suburban politics ...)
And failing. Success would mean you went back and edited out this sentence before hitting the Submit button. The alternative would be to take it on and debate it. What you have done instead is rather...

...unsatisfying. Maybe even paternalistic and arrogant.

Rick "not thinking the founders even had the word 'suburban' in their vocabulary" Denney
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Rick Denney »

Donn wrote:My guess is that they picked the Bach violin partitas hoping that they would be universally appealing - not pop, but pretty accessible. To newspaper readers, at any rate - I mean, if you read the article and think `glad I wasn't there, to have those arrogant _____s force Bach partitas down my throat!', then you're not reading it the way most did, I think.

It's too bad it takes so long for people to work up a head of outrage over this supposed arrogance. If the reporter could have interviewed a few people and gotten stuff like this out of them, I'm sure it would have been an even more entertaining article, but unfortunately it seems one has to stew over the ill-treatment of the poor subway commuters for some time before this resentment finds expression.
Sarcasm rarely works on the Internet. I didn't see any expression of outrage in the article or in this thread. More like resignation tinged with a little sadness that people's lives are so overloaded that they don't have time or the appreciation of world-class music performance when it's provide to them for free, etc., or outrage that a journalist would consider this important and that other journalists would consider it worthy of a Pulitzer prize.

And I did read the article when it came out, in the Washington Post, which I read every Sunday when I'm in town. I'm also familiar with the L'Enfant Plaza metro station, which is next door to the old Department of Transportation headquarters (which have since moved). I doubt anyone was outraged, though there was some complaining on the part of the permitted vendors in that area. They located in a place where people do not linger while waiting for their train, and that I'm sure partly explains what they observed.

But there was an undeniable underpinning of paternalism there, too. The choice of Bach underscores that, though I'm sure not purposely so. Bach is not what I would call accessible to most people. Even high-end musicians I know--classically trained musicians--find Bach to demand their fullest abilities. I could never listen to Bach passively for the same reason I cannot play most orchestral music when I work. It just demands too much of my attention. But I am musically trained, of course. If they were going for accessibility, I think they might have chosen something more like Mozart that can be listened to and appreciated in little snippets or by people with no musical training. Bach would be a good choice for the musically experienced or trained (even if just as listeners) in a setting where they can devote their attention to it, and accessible only in the sense that it would not excite controversy as would, say, something in the modernist genre.

(The rest of my response was, of course, responding to another post and not to the article itself.)

Rick "what were we talking about?" Denney
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Donn »

Rick Denney wrote:The alternative would be to take it on and debate it.
"But of course ... that would be wrong!"
Rick Denney wrote: Rick "what were we talking about?" Denney
The tuba, I'm sure, or at least, music or something that has a vague connection with the tuba.
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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Donn wrote:(Trying to ignore the lengthy exposition of blokesian `every man for himself' suburban politics ...)
. . . .
It's too bad it takes so long for people to work up a head of outrage over this supposed arrogance. If the reporter could have interviewed a few people and gotten stuff like this out of them, I'm sure it would have been an even more entertaining article, but unfortunately it seems one has to stew over the ill-treatment of the poor subway commuters for some time before this resentment finds expression.
Returning to the DC morning commuting scenario, I agree that many commuters do indeed practice "every person to him/herself." The majority of commuters show no signs of weakness or getting out of the way for anyone (the theme of a current TV commercial for pickup trucks).

1. For example, on the Metro train platform, these individualists push and shove themselves onto a Metro car before the exiting passengers can get out of the door.

2. While driving, most commuters will not let waiting vehicles turn onto the main roads. They speed up to the next red light, eyes straight ahead (no eye contact with drivers needing to turn), without extending the courtesy of letting another driver enter the roadway. They are the ones who block every intersection and parking lot entrance.

My rant is over and I feel better. :P
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Re: I've seen this story before...

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bloke wrote: * * * IF the implication is that people who believe that "every man should DO for himself" are rude, selfish, and pushy (an extremely tired argument), I would ask you to review/poll the philosophies (politically-based, in particular) of the overwhelming majority of those who use the D.C. Metro system. Image

bloke "If I misinterpreted your implications, please clarify."
No misinterpretation at all, Joe.

I would not dream of violating Sean's rules by making political comments about DC Metro commuters, a great many of whom I assume are government employees or government contractors. However, in my opinion, more workers lean toward AM talk show wisdom than lean toward Camelot or The Great Society. :roll:
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Re: I've seen this story before...

Post by Dean E »

bloke wrote:...so the "commuters" are the "great unwashed" (and rude/pushy/ignorant/etc.) who buy into the myth of "rugged individualism" whereas the Georgetown crowd (who arrive into central D.C. in limo's, etc.) are the truly "enlightened"...

...I see... :|
That would be judgmental.

Personal responsibility, integrity, morality, ethics, consideration of others, and civility are on continuums. Childhood development and upbringing account for the actions of, to mention two illustrations, the Sergeant Alvin Yorks from rural Tennessee and the Bernie Madoffs from metropolitan New York.
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[S]tudy politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy . . . in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry [and] music. . . . John Adams (1780)
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