how to get a clean attack up high

[vintage7512]

What can I do to be able to be sure about higher notes popping out and not being split when played fortissimo and with an accent. The worst are the top space G and even the C on the staff. It is not a question of range as I can easily reach the top of the staff Bb with the horn I play, just that some notes are very difficult to attack with power without splitting (especially the top space G - I have come to dread every attack). Maybe I need more emboucher than I think I do to make them comfortable, or maybe it is a fault of intonation as in I shoot for the note I hear in my head and when the note is not in tune on the horn, it is missed slightly causing the split type of sound? Anyone know exercise or tuning fixes to improve this?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

At the risk of offering "internet advice" that may or may not be helpful to your situation, it sounds like you just need a good dose of more "face time." No substitute.

If there are particular notes to battle, find some simple exercises or etudes (Blazevich, Arban, etc.) and put some practice time every day on those notes. A moderate amount of time (an hour or so each day) devoted to these issues will make a big difference in just a couple of months. Keep at it!

[bort]

I've always found that playing "known" tunes either up or down an octave helps to build comfort and confidence in different ranges -- and you're right, it's not so much "that note is too high" as much as it is "that note isn't as clean as the others." It's also a "high" note using a lot of tubing, so it gets a little funny. Is Gb okay or also funny?

[vintage7512]

Gb is similarly difficult - I think maybe the comment about intonation is the issue. I tend to compensate well for the notes which are always sharp (like low C or low F) but find the flat notes harder to adjust ( I do play a Bb - Mira 186 ). I will try all you have told me including more face time (never a bad thing) and I will bet alternate fingerings or slide pulling may be the answer. Do any of you adjust your horn in any way based on key of piece? I sometimes think it would be wise to tune the horn very differently for the key of E than for the key of, say, Eb.

[vintage7512]

12-4 and 23 for Bb on a Bb horn? That is a new one for me. Facetime - GOT IT!!

[vintage7512]

Maybe - a little, but from everyone, and I asked for it. FACETIME - GOT IT!

[jamsav]

You can always count on Mr Malicoate to add something of value !!!
The " familiar " tune into the challenging note is also a great idea. It should help you to hear the note better before you go for it . The face time will breed familiarity and confidence . jamsav ( been there , done that , now I am better....)

[imperialbari]

Facetime not based on an analytical approach may be personally entertaining, but not productive in the direction of dedicated and stable improvement. Very strong embouchures may play in pitch on whatever bad instrument, mere mortals will have to establish the correct length of tubing to get the right resonance for the correct pitch. That may happen by means of re-fingering or by means of slide adjustments.

Klaus

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Facetime not based on an analytical approach may be personally entertaining, but not productive in the direction of dedicated and stable improvement. Very strong embouchures may play in pitch on whatever bad instrument, mere mortals will have to establish the correct length of tubing to get the right resonance for the correct pitch. That may happen by means of re-fingering or by means of slide adjustments

I agree with most of this, Klaus...it is very true that some players with strong embouchures play with poor pitch. However, I hope that you would also agree that without a sufficient amount of embouchure strength on the part of the player everything else is pretty much moot. Working diligently on pitch or tone production is a fool's errand if the embouchure strength needed for good control of the instrument isn't there yet.

As a teacher of mostly younger students, I try to get them into a regular routine of "face time" to help build their stamina while mostly just observing them for any really bad habits that would be difficult to break later. With the overwhelming majority of them, I find that there really isn't much they do "wrong" when just practicing an hour or so a day consistently.

[Bob Kolada]

Do any of you adjust your horn in any way based on key of piece? I sometimes think it would be wise to tune the horn very differently for the key of E than for the key of, say, Eb.

Yes, I tune all of my slides slightly differently, depending on the key. In Bb, F, C and G, I pull my second slide out, as A and E are the major third, sixth or seventh scale step(s) in those keys. I pull my third slide out in F, Bb, Eb and Ab for the same reason. I pull my fourth slide out in Eb, Ab, Db and Gb, as well as playing Bb as 124 or 23 (depending on octave) in the keys of Db and Gb. My first slide comes out in keys like A, E, B and F#. I also use alternate fingerings a lot, such as 23 for the middle line Db. C#, on the other hand, is always 2 on its own in that octave.

I will retune the slides for a different key, but nothing like above. If I'm playing in A, E, B,.... on a Bb tuba I will pull the 4th slide so that 24 is spot on and leave it there. Any lower C's or low F's (in that case) that pop up I will play 13 pull or 4 push. I very rarely retune the main slide for changes.
I adjust while I play, but I never tune my horn's slides in advance with regards to playing 3rds and such and I don't have a default difference for C# and Db,..... I don't see the point.
Half of the horns I play have a flat 5th partial and the other doesn't. On both of my tubas, you'd be surprised at how little a slide push/pull can accomplish.

[imperialbari]

There certainly are players with strong embouchures playing in bad pitch, but I did neither discuss nor mention them, as they rarely can be considered musicians; rather they are poor individuals wasting everybody’s time including their own.

What I talked about was players with embouchures so strong, that they will play in good pitch even on instruments considered bad by others. Somewhere, probably here, I have read about Bill Bell having a sousaphone, which was considered stuffy and out of tune by those trying it. Only there were no complaints from Bill Bell, who even used that instrument for solo recordings.

On almost any of the instrument lists I follow there are frequent complaints from students and amateurs about various aspects of their instruments. Sometimes I am left with a strong desire to ask, whether the given instrument has been tested by a competent player.

Most instruments of decent quality have been tuned to get the best compromise of intonation possible within given limitations. Most old US-made sousaphones come with only three valves, which especially before the introduction of the pull-able top-slide of the 1st valve tubing was bound to give sharp C’s, B naturals, F’s and E naturals in the low range of the BBb versions. Not solving the problem, but diminishing it, Conn and others made all three valve slide a tiny bit too long. The idea was, that the flattish notes elsewhere in the range were no more flat, than they could be lipped up by a competent player.

Competent players also tend to be consistent players, whereas amateurs may have erratic problems. One instrument repairman in my country was known to modify costly woodwind instruments, which their wealthy amateur owners could not play in tune. When these instruments eventually were returned to the maker, the damage done was traced to that repairman, who lost his license to do guarantee maintenance and repair for that maker.

I have strayed, but my point to the OP still is: Do analysis of the notes you crack. As others have told, the remedy may be slide manipulation and/or alternative fingerings.

Klaus

[Todd S. Malicoate]

There certainly are players with strong embouchures playing in bad pitch, but I did neither discuss nor mention them, as they rarely can be considered musicians; rather they are poor individuals wasting everybody’s time including their own.

What I talked about was players with embouchures so strong, that they will play in good pitch even on instruments considered bad by others.

Yep. My misunderstanding and apologies.

[imperialbari]

As long as I can restate my point freely and you then get it, no apology is needed. Everybody will do misinterpretations once in a while. The problems only enter, when the bad interpreters get stubborn.

My dislike for players with strong embouchures, who play badly out of tune, is immense. Those types usually can rattle off whatever number of notes in no time. They can play lots of excerpts and whole solos from memory. And everything is out of tune and nothing is musically phrased. They are pests in ensembles because they neither have the wills nor the technical remedies to adapt at least their intonation.

Klaus