Standing with the euphonium

[CKH]

Hello again,

Sorry for such an onslaught of questions since I joined... That's just my MO. I've got another one though..

As far as standing with the euphonium, what's the best way to do it? I had a lesson with Dr. Bowman a couple months back, and he told me I was holding the instrument incorrectly. He advised to hold the horn against the body and to straighten it. The only thing I really remember about holding the horn is that my left arm really hurt after the lesson. And unless I've discovered some newfound bicep (wait, let me check; no) I now feel like I'm holding the horn wrong. Where should the bottom of the horn go in relationship to my body?

Thanks,

Christian

[pgym]

I had a lesson with Dr. Bowman a couple months back, and he told me I was holding the instrument incorrectly. He advised to hold the horn against the body and to straighten it.

Unless you have a physical condition that prevents you from holding the horn as Dr. Bowman advised you to hold it, then that's how you should hold it.

[mceuph]

I don't think there's a "correct" way to hold the horn, considering that everyone is built differently. You definitely don't want to play with pain just for the sake of being correct. Have you checked out the ergobrass system? Jukka Myllys uses it, I got to try one last summer, and it was great. It really takes the pressure off of your arm and makes carrying the horn easy. You can get them from justforbrass.com They're a bit expensive, but well worth the money in my opinion.

[Weaponofchoice]

I've dealt with this sam issue for a while now and most euphonium's just aren't comfortable to hold. I feel Wilsons have the best hold of most euphoniums, it cradle's in your arm nicely. Each horn is different. I can't hold my prestige like a wilson because then the trigger won't work. I also use and highly recommend the ergo brass system.

[CKH]

Thanks to everyone who answered.

I find it a bit ironic that the euphonium is one of the newest instruments to come out of the woodwork but is one of the least ergonomic.
Just a thought...

Christian

[Bob Kolada]

I find it a bit ironic that the euphonium is one of the newest instruments to come out of the woodwork but is one of the least ergonomic.

It's all that top valve 3+1, funny angled leadpipe,.... jazz. A front action bariphonium is SO much more comfortable!

[Brassworks 4]

Like anything that's new, it will take a bit of getting used to. Muscles will become stronger the more they are used in a new way. When I first got my Prestige, I questioned whether my standing/playing days were over. The horn felt much heavier than the Sovereign and the main tuning slide kept hitting my body when I used the trigger. But a few minor adjustments with the position and several days of practicing, I got stronger and it became more comfortable.

Standing has so many advantages! Its worth the sore arms. Seriously.

For the record, I'm an average height female, slender, with typical "girl" arms (you should see me throw a rock into the river - ha!!)

It really just takes some getting used to.

As for my hold position, I agree that the horn "fits" better to the body when held flatter, more parallel to the body (tilted out a bit to allow the main slide to move on the Prestige) Although, I do play the 4th valve with my middle finger of the LH so that the reach is more comfortable from the thumb being on the trigger. That, I believe, is due to the fact that my hands are not real large. It works just fine.

[DelVento]

Brian Bowman has very unique opinions about posture. He believes that holding the horn straight puts the airstream straight through the leadpipe (and that tilting the horn redirects the airstream). It also depends on what kind of instrument you use. York/Bessons are actually designed to be held in this manner (look at the leadpipe).

The other school of thought is to tilt the horn to the side and hug it a little bit. This is how James Jackson teaches posture and it's how I do it. Either way it's going to hurt A LOT and it'll take some getting used to. James says that if it's comfortable at first then something's wrong lol.

I personally think the tilt is a lot more supported than the straight up euphonium. Willsons are designed to be held with a tilt (look at the curve of the leadpipe) anyways.

Just my 2 cents.

Or you can switch instruments and have it A LOT easier.....

[DelVento]

He is also the most controversial pedagogue in the euphonium world, and you'd be surprised some of the things he teaches his students.

There are many other notable euphonium teachers that don't use the straight-up posture...but like I said before, I don't want to get in an argument on these forums.

[windshieldbug]

I prefer to have my euphonium held up for me by a bathing suit-clad model. I have NEVER had a complaint from any of my audiences.

[Troiano220]

I had a lesson with Dr. Bowman also and he told me something similar. I remember my arm and wrist hurting for a few days after, but it's just using different muscles. With practice, muscle memory will kick in and the change will only help you.

[DelVento]

I'm not criticizing Dr. Bowman in any way. Both his students and myself will tell you that he is controversial!

And he's good!!

[elimia]

I say screw holding it - I bought a tuba strap and sling it under my left arm. I have plenty of breath support and sound and take the ergonomic issue completely out of the playing equation. I guess anything is possible to learn, but we ain't playing trumpets here.

It is technically possible, in some way, for a saxophone player to hold their horn too. I rest my case.

[euph_music311]

DelVento, I have a sneaking suspicion that you have little to no experience with Dr. Bowman as you keep bringing up that his students say he's controversial as well as yourself.

Please let me tell you, as someone who has studied with Dr. Bowman extensively, that what he does works... and I am pretty sure that if it works, nearly 100% of the time, it is hard to call that controversial. If you have a different opinion, that's great! A lot of people do! But that doesn't mean that one of the greatest performers and pedagogues for our instrument is controversial in any way, but just different from what you agree with.

Maybe it is just my pride acting up, but please choose your words carefully.

[DelVento]

I'm VERY good friends with most of his students and I study during the summer with one of his grad students.

When I say he's controversial I'm agreeing with what his students tell me. I remember a quote being, "A lot of people disagree with Dr. B, actually A TON OF PEOPLE disagree with him, but his pedagogy certainly works."

Admitting someone is controversial isn't criticism or arrogance. People said the same about Remington, Schlossberg, and Reinhardht.

[Dean]

"Controversial" does not mean sub-standard--it's not a term of insult.

But, I still don't see how it applies to Dr. B. He is/was my primary teacher, and I've known him for 14 years now. "Controversial" would mean that his teaching methods vary greatly from "the norm" (whatever that is), AND that variance stirs much talk/debate about those methods in the euphonium world.

In these 14 years, this is literally the first time I have heard the term applied to Dr. B's teaching. That's not very much talk/debate for a "controversy."

Dean

[Dean]

Oh, and for the original point of this thread:

As long as you are not impaired with some sort of ailment (a left hand injury, shoulder injury, etc, etc...) you can hold the euphonium while standing with no aid. I know quite a few 5-foot-and-change tiny females who have no issues holding the horn. Yes, I remember not liking it either when I first started playing while standing, even with my rather large frame. The body adapts--muscles get stronger.

The point above was to say--yes, you can hold the euphonium--not necessarily HOW. Everyone is a bit different, but I would take Dr. B's advice, and if you feel abnormal (large amounts) of pain in small areas (around the wrist, elbow, etc) then you may need to adjust a bit.

Best that you try it for a few weeks then get another consult with Dr. B or another euphonium teacher. Use a mirror--watch for weird angles and bad posture. Common pain points are the wrist (which is often at too steep an angle) and the shoulder/upper back (often caused by unneeded stress from raising the left shoulder above "rest" position).

Once again, this is something that cannot be diagnosed or taught on TubeNet.... You really need a teacher--in person--to watch your progress with holding the horn!

[DelVento]

"Controversial" does not mean sub-standard--it's not a term of insult.

But, I still don't see how it applies to Dr. B. He is/was my primary teacher, and I've known him for 14 years now. "Controversial" would mean that his teaching methods vary greatly from "the norm" (whatever that is), AND that variance stirs much talk/debate about those methods in the euphonium world.

In these 14 years, this is literally the first time I have heard the term applied to Dr. B's teaching. That's not very much talk/debate for a "controversy."

Dean

This is why TubeNet has the reputation it has....

I don't want/need to argue about the topic. If it's semantics or just your love for a past teacher, whatever.

To the point, hold your euphonium.