What's it like to play with a professional group?

[MartyNeilan]

Played on both sides, do most of my playing in amateur groups these days. If I had to sum up the differences in just one word, it would be:
INTONATION

And as important - if not more so is RYTHM Even a wrong note played at exactly the right time can be MUCH better than the right note, perfectly in tune with beautiful tone, played at the wrong time. A good example is the "Bolero" test posted here recently. Years ago I saw a video of LAPO with Roger Bobo playing this. It is NOT what one would call a challenging or interesting looking part. Roger made every note important and with his perfect timing did much to give the performance its drive. Some of the greatest tuba playing I have ever heard when it came to making his part contribute to (as opposed to dominating) a great ensemble performance.

I agree that pitch and rhythm are the biggest killers in auditions. However, between rap music and Guitar Hero, most non-pros seem to have pretty decent rhythm these days. It is pitch that is the real killer (even for players of fretted instruments that don't know how to tune, tune to their pocket tuner when everyone else tunes to the grand piano in the middle of the sanctuary, or just don't use decent fret technique.) The Guitar Hero "push the right button at the right time" mentality may only possibly carry over to a keyboard instrument. As long as they push buttons and blow, they think they are playing the right notes. It is amazing how many relatively decent players don't have a clue when they are clashing with those around them. Even worse, when they recognize it, but ignore it " It doesn't really matter. I am using the right fingering like it says in the back of the book, it's not my fault. I am right, everyone else is wrong. I don't use the fourth valve. Nobody can tell the difference anyway. As long as I am doing it for fill-in-the-blank it doesn't matter how it sounds" Multiply that a few times, and you have a 20-30 cent pitch spread throughout the group.

[Steve Marcus]

There is probably no new insight in this reply to this thread. Nevertheless...

While there is much pleasure in playing with a fine community/volunteer ensemble (and some, such as the brass bands in the US, are making tremendous strides in quality of performance), the non-remunerative joys of playing in a professional ensemble are the appreciation of (and your contribution to) the ensemble's:

- precise and uniform articulation
- impeccable intonation
- very wide but controlled dynamic range
- excellent overall balance
- warm, full tone in all instrumental families
- professional attitude (well, most of the time)

[windshieldbug]

Interpret what the conductor is telling you, even if they are staring into space and giving you the hand.

Be able to to whatever the conductor requests of you, even if it's standing on your head and sounding like a viola.

Make your own performance so characteristic of what you are asked, the piece, your part and the group so that it is never necessary for the conductor to stop and correct anything you do.

Remember that the audience shelled out hard-earned cash to hear your performance. Your own part BETTER be near 100%. (Everyone makes mistakes, but nobody makes them that often. If they do, then they are working at a Pizza Hut)

[tubbba]

It is amazing how many relatively decent players don't have a clue when they are clashing with those around them.

I play in a community band where this is the case. The concertmaster tunes her clarinet in advance of the rehearsal. When we tune, there are "certain sections" that are not only out of tune, but have no clue how to fix the problem. A simple $20-25 investment and a commitment to showing up 20 minutes early to warm up can make a world of difference - and not waste the time of the rest of the group that already do.

In contrast, on a HOT summer day on my SHARP Yamaha, it was IMPOSSIBLE to pull my tuning slide out far enough to play in tune. Fortunately, the others in my Brass Ensemble knew to tune to the conditions - not to a tuner.

Professionals don't need to think about it. They just do it.

[b.williams]

BTW, who said to be considered a pro group, the miltary band had to be in DC?

[rocksanddirt]

Very interesting discussion.

on the subject of tuning....our church band group we spend almost no time tuning, and the guy who is the conductor actually teaches people to listen and tune each note as they play (i.e., lip intonation, not slide pulling). The groups i have been in over the years that focused on 'tuning' generally had worse intonation, than groups that focused on 'playing in tune with each other'.

My take on the professional attitude playing thing....treat it like any professional job. My professional job involves a number of things, some of which are more fun/enjoyable than others.

[sloan]

Wait a minute - these are the keys to being a good professional?

And here I always thought these were keys to being a good amateur...

There are some really terrific, wise answers here. I especially liked "intonation" as a one-word answer, to which I'd add "improving".

I have a rich career, playing in every conceivable situation in my locale. A professional is a broad term, but it encompasses some broad basics for me, and here're some things which could help you:

1) Be someone pleasant to work with. Try not to gripe, but commiserate if appropriate. Don't blame your equipment, but you can show interest in others'. Smile. Applaud good playing, be silent about accidents. Don't smell, either of personal funk or cologne. Listen, both as a player and a person. Shut up. Be kind, giving, sharing, and complimentary. Ignore a—holes, lest you become one.

2) Don’t be a slob. Dress like you care. Sometimes, when it’s hot out and everyone’s playing outdoors in the sun, shorts are okay. But no cutoffs or tanks or sloppiness. Dress for success. Have a good tux and a good suit, both of which should fit. Wear studs and a good tie and cummerbund. Have clean long ties and plenty of white shirts for busy weeks. Polished shoes, please.

3) The answer is yes. Asked to bring a stand? The answer is not “ah crap!” Need a mute and don’t have one? Get one, never answer I don’t have one unless it’s a blond gila monster in a tutu, in which case you’ll “do your best” or you “might need some suggestions where to find that.” Need a white jacket or tails? You get them, don’t kvetch.

4) Practice. As a freelancer, often I don’t get music ahead of time. Even the big groups may not send it if you’re filling in or doing a pops run. But you still practice. You must be able to sight-read, identify money notes (these could save your bacon!), and play with others. Make friends with a bass trombonist and play scales and duets often. Start a chamber group and play often. Learn to tune on the fly - don’t rely on your instrument, rely on you (your horn can be stolen or damaged – then where are you?). Practice the piano. Sight-read on the piano. Even if you suck (like I do) you’re reading multiple lines, and reading a single line on your main instrument will be a breeze.

5) Learn to swing. Learn your scales. Practice blue scales and play some music-minus-one jazz improve records. You’ll run across other styles besides Mahler. You may play chorus line. A Dixieland trio in front of a band. God knows what. You must be able to do it competently.

6) Be flexible. Unless you’re the conductor, do what the conductor or section leader says (you’re never the section leader). They have the vision. When you’re in charge, then you can run the show. You might be surprised when the “wrong” interpretation could give you the best experience of your life!

7) Learn to play quietly. Dear god, and for the love of St. Pete, learn to play quietly. You have to be able to be behind the show, let others shine, obey the hand, ride under the bass bone, join the basses, etc. It’s not all Fountains all the time. And for the love of god, don’t play fountains every time you show up for a gig. We know you can do it… you better be able to or you have no business accepting money to play. Get ready to work instead. And shut up and try some pianissimo scales instead.

Finally, when playing with “amateurs”, be all of the above, and set an example. Don’t begrudge the lower standards of playing, bemoan the idiot choral conductor (that may be redundant anyway : ). Don’t correct others, but work with them; at the break say “why don’t we all try that one part again together.” You can scream at your car radio about your frustrations. Leave them there.

One basic rule – don’t work to become a pro unless you have to. I mean that that’s the only thing which will make you happy, that it’s the thing you must do. Otherwise, you could be in for a great deal of frustration and unhappiness, along with almost guaranteed poverty.

J.c.S.

[sloan]

How did, "What's it like" turn into "do's and don'ts"...??

same way it turned into a discussion of the discussion.

[windshieldbug]

How did, "What's it like" turn into "do's and don'ts"...??

same way it turned into a discussion of the discussion.

1st RULE: You do not talk about FIGHT CLUB.
2nd RULE: You DO NOT talk about FIGHT CLUB.

[Wyvern]

I can assure you that none, I repeat none, 0%, of the problems will be caused by the pros.

My experience from hearing a number of the top orchestras is that pros do make mistakes - not as often as amateurs, but they are not infallible either.

To me being 'professional' is having the technical ability to play what is required with confidence, reliability, accuracy, musicality and good tone.

[MaryAnn]

As long as the thread is wandering anyway, Goodgigs said:

>How do you know? Have you ever taken the Myers /Briggs personality index indicator test?
>It is available at most junior colleges and is a starting point in career exploration. It is not an absolute decider, but
>I recommend it. It's good for telling you what might be harder or easier about any job you'll ever have.

This may be more important in terms of liking the career you chose as opposed to feeling like you never, ever fit in. In M-B terms, I'm an INFJ. The most highly recommended career for this type is Counselor. Not Performer. And....I hate performing. Want to run from the stage most of the time. When I was 30, I quit trying to be a pro (was in a regional orchestra,) went back to school, and made a much better choice the second time around, where I can sit in a quiet corner and just do my thing without having people peering at me.

So "what it's like" depends at least partly on what fits with you and who you are. I found the pros, in the particular orchestra I was in, to be cliquish, standoffish, non-accepting, etc.....and I'm sure a lot of that was my fault, for not knowing how to fit in with a bunch of extroverts. I still can't figure out what makes extroverts tick.

MA

[Lew]

MaryAnn, I have to agree that being an introvert on the MBTI would make it very difficult to be a performer, except for maybe a tuba player . On the other hand, Myers-Briggs is not destiny, it is merely an indicator. Each of us has the ability to make a choice as to how we approach life. MBTI can help one understand their tendencies and deal with those issues that might be inconsistent with their natural tendencies if that is needed to achieve a particular goal.

[Chuck Jackson]

bloke "but I suspect that amateur bands and orchestras are subject to equal-if-not-more of this same sort of stuff"

I would assume so, but for wildly different reasons.

Chuck"happemstance"Jackson

[Rev Rob]

This may be more important in terms of liking the career you chose as opposed to feeling like you never, ever fit in. In M-B terms, I'm an INFJ. The most highly recommended career for this type is Counselor. Not Performer.

Well Mary Ann I also fit into that category as well, and I am a pastor. In fact most pastors are INFJs. Guess what we have to do every Sunday before a congregation - perform. However, I am not a musical performer. I will never sing a solo in choir, but always be a member of the choir. I will never play a tuba solo, but I always want to be part of the band or ensemble. But I am happy being an "I".

[The Jackson]

bloke "but I suspect that amateur bands and orchestras are subject to equal-if-not-more of this same sort of stuff"

Geez, I WISH that happened for the same reason it happened to you. When a concert is around the corner (whether by a few days or by three months), rehearsals in a lot of groups I've played with ALWAYS go to the end or beyond because actual stuff needs to be taken care of. I wouldn't be p-o'd at that if it wasn't the same stuff every week.

I had the great opportunity to play with a dynamite group of college tuba/euph players the other day. Even though they were "just" college players, the difference was night-and-day between what I'm used to down here. I had an asbolutely fantastic time playing with those guys and girls.

[tubatooter1940]

There are great amateur groups as well as pros who get paid.
I think the original question was more like what is it like to play with the best players. Those guys will take you to wonderful places musically, you have never been before and have you playing stuff you didn't know you could play.
Players who can lift you up and carry you along with them and make you a memory you will never forget.
I can only hope all here can enjoy such a fullfilling experience many times.
It's about the most fun you can have with your clothes on.
toots

[MaryAnn]

Lew wrote:
>MaryAnn, I have to agree that being an introvert on the MBTI would make it very difficult to be a performer, except for maybe a tuba player.

That was when I was a violinist; by the time (30) I realized this was going to be a no-go in terms of enjoying it, it was too late to become pro on a different instrument, at least in terms of making a living. Later, when I took up horn, I absolutley loved sitting in the back in the horn section. That orchestra was a lot more rewarding than the pro orchestra, but frankly I had had enough after eight years when the dystonia hit, anyway.

MA

[cjk]

How did, "What's it like" turn into "do's and don'ts"...??

[sloan]

The horn player replied, "So-and-so would never work with us. They live an hour and a half away, and can't rehearse." I responded, "For $XXX, they'll show up and do the gig, but not the rehearsal, and it will be three times as good as it would be if you hired Thus-and-so to do the rehearsal and the concert". ...so I talked the horn player into hiring So-and-so. The out-of-town top-drawer trumpet player did a stunning job on a famous part from a Bach cantata, and sight-read the entire concert perfectly. Moreover, the other 2nd/3rd stringers in the quintet played BETTER with So-and-so playing with the group. THEY ALL HAD MORE FUN. (Isn't that they real point of it all?)

I have only one small quibble with this. Something that top-line pros sometimes forget. For most amateurs (and some 3rd-string pros), it is NOT FUN to rehearse with a short-handed group and then have the 1st-line folk show up to "sight read the concert perfectly".

For those people - it's preferable to hire a ringer who can attend (and is paid for) the rehearsals as well as the concert.

On the other hand, I suspect there are some pros who would charge more (per hour) for a rehearsal than a performance (with a "below-his-standard" group).

If I'm doing it for FUN, I'll take the hacker who shows up every week over the star who sight reads the concert.

As always - it depends on your goals. The most common mistake made by both amateurs and pros is to assume that the other guy has the same goals that you do. 'tain't so, McGee!

[MaryAnn]

Someone I know started a TE quartet a year ago.

A typical mistake was made, in selecting players. At one time and then another, both a college student and a pro level player were asked to be in the group. Neither worked out very well, and it wasn't playing ability, or personality, that was the problem. The college student kept forgetting rehearsals and lost some of the music. The pro player didn't stay very long since he needed to make more money and no one in the group was adept at getting gigs.

The advice that had been given up front by someone, was that in an amateur group, do not have either a student or a pro for the very reasons that were demonstrated above. Different topic, of course, than hiring a pro to play with an amateur group for "a" concert. Birds of a feather and all that....if the feathers don't match very well, the birds won't all be happy and some will fly south.

MA