A bit of history

[swillafew]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxhorn" target="_blank" target="_blank

These are important in reading about the early instruments.

[Wyvern]

Ian, I can't answer your questions, but your post prompts some thoughts I will share for right or wrong.

What was the original purpose of these monster sousaphones?

Were they not to provide a sold bass foundation to big concert bands, like Sousa's? From what I have read, those bands were immensely popular and attracted large audiences. Remember this was before the days of electronic amplifiers - so those Jumbo sousaphones provided the best means of providing a solid bass that projected out to the large audience.

Since the jumbo designation originated in America, was there a market for sousaphones in Europe

There has always been a very small market for sousaphones in Europe (mainly for jazz) and the Helicon was principally used in Eastern Europe. Otherwise tubas were the rule - rotary in Germany and east - piston in France and Britain. A book I have about bands of the Nazis illustrates only rotary tubas being played - some pretty big. The tuba on which the M-W 37 Hilgers BBb is based was said to be used by one of Hitler's guards bands.

As far as I can tell from playing a 48K is that they (jumbo sousaphones) provided a more "tuba" like sound

Having played the 48K myself, I would say they produce a broader more organ like tone than any upright tuba. And was not the whole point of the development of 6/4 tubas to try and capture that sort of "Jumbo" tone for the concert hall?

why they were created...

Because Sousa wanted such large sousaphones for his band (in raincatcher form) and he was influential enough to get it done.

[imperialbari]

I do not entirely agree with Jonathan. There is at least one illustration of a British military bandsman playing a piston helicon back before 1890. Piston helicons, narrower than the German-Czech-Russian rotary helicons, were made in France and Belgium, two countries with close relations to the British brass industry.

Paxman, now a famous horn maker, started out as a brass shop after WWI with the main market task of converting surplus military helicons to sousaphones for the not yet electrically amplified dance bands.

The large 4 piston BBb sousaphones in their pre-WWII heavy brass sheets’ versions hardly were made for marching. They rather were for the dance bands, where their dark sound acted as louder bowed string basses. When electrical amplification became more common, there came a transitional market for doublers on brass and string basses. There the sousaphones are impractical unless you sit outside the circle. I see the Conn 2XJ series of tubas as the successor of the sousaphones in that transitional market. Conn specifically marketed the top piston versions as well suited for doublers with the tuba on a stand to the right and the string bass on a stand to the left of the player. Conn even made aluminium string basses before WWII.

Klaus

[sloan]

Ah good, just what I suspected/theorized. Many thanks!

Now I just need to flesh out the paper a bit more. Some of what you guys have said I've read similar things in Treatise on the Tuba and The Tuba Family.

There just really isn't much consolidated info on the sousaphone, usually it's about a page or two, even less dealing with the jumbos. Someone should revise a book or something...

or write a research paper...

[Wyvern]

Someone should revise a book or something...

Sounds like that should be you Ian!

[mammoth2ba]

Well, speaking of Jumbos in dance bands, I'd be remiss not to bring the following YouTube clip of the 1928 Ingenues "Band Beautiful" to your attention. Looks like a Conn Jumbo 46K sousaphone on a stand, played from outside the wraps. The _woman_ also "triples" on string bass and bass sax (on a stand to left of sousaphone):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ACtACBX0gM" target="_blank" target="_blank

The same Vitaphone short (#2573(?)....plus others) is available in higher rez as part of the three-disc deluxe edition DVD of "Jazz Singer" with Al Jolson.

Would be interesting to read a biography of these girl musicians in the 1920's.....

_Love It_ when they all pull out their accordions.....then banjos!!

[imperialbari]

Very funny show!

And I think there is more show on the surface than music in the depth.

First: I am biased from hearing one of the great US crooners, who was still active, when I was young, but who’s name escapes me right now. He told that he never was an instrumentalist, but the union prohibited bandleaders hiring singers, even if each of the great bands had a few of them to alternate and maybe singing duos, trios, or quartet arrangements. these vocalists were hired as string players, and then they sat in the front row with violins equipped with rubber strings between their vocal entries.

The cello girl on the video appears genuine, but we don’t know if she really plays the bassoon. The violin girls appear being fake, rather playing for real on their sax and brasses. Most of the accordions and banjos are fake, but do greta visual work. The soloists and the bass girl obviously are for real, but the band isn’t nearly as versatile as the show wants us to think. The secret behind much of the ensemble is in the two pianos banging along most of the time. Does the bass girl really play the bass sax? Is the clarinet girl really a girl?

That MM movie wasn’t all invented hot air.

More links of this kind, please.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

I would say that the 38K I play does have all the wear and dents you would expect from being used for marching, including tell-tale discoloration rings at a point around the inner tubes of the main slide which happen to be exactly where it needs to be set for playing in tune outside on a crisp October Saturday. (I played a re-dedication of a regional courthouse on such a day and found that out). So I will go out on a limb and say, at least this particular souzy, was marched with a lot over its 80 years.

[David Richoux]

Very funny show!

And I think there is more show on the surface than music in the depth.

First: I am biased from hearing one of the great US crooners, who was still active, when I was young, but who’s name escapes me right now. He told that he never was an instrumentalist, but the union prohibited bandleaders hiring singers, even if each of the great bands had a few of them to alternate and maybe singing duos, trios, or quartet arrangements. these vocalists were hired as string players, and then they sat in the front row with violins equipped with rubber strings between their vocal entries.

The cello girl on the video appears genuine, but we don’t know if she really plays the bassoon. The violin girls appear being fake, rather playing for real on their sax and brasses. Most of the accordions and banjos are fake, but do greta visual work. The soloists and the bass girl obviously are for real, but the band isn’t nearly as versatile as the show wants us to think. The secret behind much of the ensemble is in the two pianos banging along most of the time. Does the bass girl really play the bass sax? Is the clarinet girl really a girl?

Klaus

I am not saying you are wrong here, Klaus - but there were many skilled women musicians in the 1920s - I think they are really playing on this film. They did play all over the world, live, in a variety of settings and fake players would be noticed. You may need a Google account to read this. more details on The Ingenues.

There were several other "All Girl Orchestras"around - even into the late 1940s. While The Ingenues might not have been a "real" jazz band, when the International Sweethearts of Rhythm got going - that was jazz!


As to that clarinet player - flat chests were still somewhat "in style" in those years so don't make automatic assumptions

[eupher61]

Ian, contact Steve Dillon for one, and Margaret Downey Banks at the Univ of South Dakota Music Museum (it has a better name, but you'll find it from that). Steve is a great authority on Conn, and Dr Banks is possibly THE authority on Conn. Find the museum's website and you'll find a lot of her research.

[imperialbari]

First: I am biased from hearing one of the great US crooners, who was still active, when I was young, but who’s name escapes me right now. He told that he never was an instrumentalist, but the union prohibited bandleaders hiring singers, even if each of the great bands had a few of them to alternate and maybe singing duos, trios, or quartet arrangements. these vocalists were hired as string players, and then they sat in the front row with violins equipped with rubber strings between their vocal entries.

Bing Crosby

[Steve Marcus]

Ian,

I hope that your instructor will be as fascinated with your thesis as TubeNet readers will be.

Good luck!