worst-paying college degrees...

[Rick Denney]

Of course, if you aren't actually hiring anyone, then your hypothetical preferences don't matter much.

I am not speaking hypothetically. Many, many people are hired every day under the following two conditions:

1. They are required to have a college degree.

2. The specific degree they have doesn't really matter for the job they are being hired to do.

We are in a down market and nobody is doing much hiring at the moment. Can't help that. People just have to do what they can to get by, and keep applying. That does not affect my point, however.

Rick "whose wife is a human resources specialist who 1) hires people for a living and 2) is currently overworked" Denney

[Chadtuba]

Amen to that. I *could've* gone for an Engineering (or Computer Programming) degree, but I wanted to do Music Education because that's what I love to do. So, when someone can find a house under $2XX,XXX, and make a starting salary of around $5X,XXX, living in Texas is not all that bad.

You can really START at $50,000 teaching music? Around these parts, especially once you leave the "big cities" it is low 30's.
According to this, Texas starts mid 30's. I doubt the band director stipend is 15 grand.
What's really scary, is that North Dakota starts under 25.
http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

Not that its much more, but a first year teacher in this area of ND (and I've looked at most of the districts within a 100 mile stretch) are starting out around $28K and a teacher with a few years experience is getting into the low to mid $30's. Its not a lot of money but I make enough to live comfortably, even if a little tight sometimes. I can say that for the same type of school district (small rural) I'm making more money in ND than I was in southern Colorado with a much lower cost of living in ND.

[MaryAnn]

Back when I went back to school for my engineering degree, I learned about what I call the Scholarship vs Salary Rule.

The more scholarships are available to attend college, the less money you will make when you get out, and vice versa. I had scholarships out the wazoo in music school; in engineering school, even though I carried a 4.0 through the entire course of study, I didn't get anything resembling a scholarship until my senior year, which I got a paltry $100 or so for "a" semester.

But my engineering salary is *enormously* higher than what I made as a musician. Since I'm not that fond of either way of making a living, I decided to just go for the bucks. I'm not at all sure what I would do for money that would be fun; I get bored too easily and like my solitude, and would rather just live in a hut in the woods most of the time.

MA

[sloan]

I'm not at all sure what I would do for money that would be fun; I get bored too easily and like my solitude, and would rather just live in a hut in the woods most of the time.

MA

That's the job description for "Burden on Society".

It doesn't pay well, and you would lose bloke as a friend.

[Rev Rob]

I'm not at all sure what I would do for money that would be fun; I get bored too easily and like my solitude, and would rather just live in a hut in the woods most of the time.

MA

That's the job description for "Burden on Society".

It doesn't pay well, and you would lose bloke as a friend.

Sloan, if MaryAnn is self sufficient, she would not be a burden on anyone. If fact she would be helping world society by having a smaller carbon footprint. If she is able to live very simply and minimally, she is not using the earth's resources. True, she may not be contributing much to the national economy. But I get worried when Madison Ave. tries to persuade/mind wash us that we need to purchase junk we don't need to maintain our national economy.

I do hope MaryAnn and Bloke remain friends.

[TUBAD83]

When I got my first "company" job over 36 years ago, you could get a good paying job without having even a high school diploma and make a career of it. Today, this is not the case--kids graduating out of college and technical school today are competing in an international job market in a down economy--you really have to "sell yourself" and not just depend on your diploma to get the job. Young people need to be prepared for this right now.

JJ

[Dean E]

Rick "thinking most educational institutions don't even know how to identify and recognize good teachers, let alone how to reward and motivate them" Denney

Speaking of identifying and recognizing workers in general, there has been a big, proposed change in federal hiring. Using résumés in place of knowledge, skills and abilities (KSAs) will promote, in my opinion, emphasis on education and job titles in lieu of accomplishments and skill sets. I agree that KSAs are an exercise in creative writing, but receding away from one's detailed skillsets in favor of degrees takes tools away from federal selecting and hiring officials.

See this announcement, for example:
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0410/04 ... st_popular" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Rev Rob]

Bloke, would you support taxes for education, especially the promotion of "quality" education, such as: up to date facilities, low student to teacher ratios, up to date books, computers, science equipment, art and music departments?

Using tax dollars to support quality education is one thing; my questions is then how do we get parents to support their children in pursing a quality education? That is the $64 question.

[MartyNeilan]

That was one thing my ex never understood. Her answer was always to try and make more money. Often, it is much easier (and leads to more time with your children) if you instead find things to cut back on. Spending $2000 less a year actually comes out ahead of a $2000 raise - that raise is heavily taxed but your spending cut isn't, and more work means more money spent for childcare.

Marty "This coming from the guy who just bought a tuba yesterday "

[bort]

For an immediate solution, cutting spending always works. Longer term, raises are far better since they compound. I worked at a company once that favored small raises and bonuses over larger raises, since they couldn't guarantee that the next year's sales would support a higher payroll (duh). Would you rather have a 3% raise per year, or a 1.5% raise and 5% bonus? The bonus only comes out on top for a few years...which is all I stayed for.

[tubaforce]

Hello again! In the piping industry, and construction in general, I run into quite a few folks who are constantly chasing the big overtime jobs all over the country! I would be the last person to tell anyone else how to live, but I never did get the almost religious devotion to the dollar! I see these folks now and again, and they're always freshly divorced, or estranged from their family, or have worked themselves into an early grave! Not the lifestyle I would choose for myself! We are a free people, at least we think we are, and get to choose our paths for the most part. I think too many of us choose to worship the dollar, and never find any real satisfaction in life! Greed trickles down from the "top"(CEO's), and infects way too many people. I understand the need to make enough money to live comfortably, and have some nice things(like TUBAS!), but jeez Louise!How much is enough? what could possibly motivate someone making millions a year to keep working after just a few years? I'd like to think I'd take my first bonus and retire! I'm NOT a fan of jacking taxes to 90% on the wealthy, but I would like to see ambitious, talented people have a decent chance of making their hard work pay off! It kills me that people working hard 40+ hours a week are still in POVERTY! Maybe if corporate heads still made only 40-50 times what the maintenance man made, there wouldn't be any working poor? How is 400-500times your lowest paid worker fair? I certainly don't want to see salaries controlled by government, but when are businesses going to take a little more responsibility for keeping our middle class healthy? Intel, and other big outfits try and do the right(IMHO) thing, letting all their people earn a decent wage, and benefits, and I don't see any of their execs, or owners needing a food bank soon! Have a great weekend, everyone! Al.

[sloan]

what could possibly motivate someone making millions a year to keep working after just a few years?

job satisfaction?

[bort]

People who make millions spend millions. Big houses, nice cars, etc... If they stopped working, they would have to change their lifestyles to something cheaper. They don't want to do that, so they keep working. Oh, and they might actually like what they do, too. (Same as the rest of us, just on a bigger scale. )

[bort]

I think you would be shocked to discover how many exceptions there are to your conceptual stereotype.

I was just thinking of the "top CEO's" comment thrown out there. I know there are plenty of people with a mountain of money who choose not to spend it (or spend it "discretely").

[TUBAD83]

People who make millions spend millions. Big houses, nice cars, etc... If they stopped working, they would have to change their lifestyles to something cheaper. They don't want to do that, so they keep working. Oh, and they might actually like what they do, too. (Same as the rest of us, just on a bigger scale. )

I think you would be shocked to discover how many exceptions there are to your conceptual stereotype. One multi-million dollar friend of mine just moved to another state and sold his...$160,000 ...house. Another multi-million dollar friend of mine (who bought $250,000 of Texaco stock back in the '80's when it was nearly a "penny" stock - ' during rumors of a Texaco bankruptcy...and still owns all of that stock today) lives in a c. 800 sq. fit. "nice shack" on an acre-or-so of land. That house probably isn't worth much more than $30,000.

fwiw, The first guy owns a "stable" of automobiles worth about...$8000 ...and guy #2 (who is worth vastly more millions than guy #1) owns two cars that run, but probably aren't worth $1000 combined.

That's how people become millionaires....work really hard and maintain a very modest (for some, even spartan) lifestyle--save/invest every penny they have after taking care of the necessities. It can be done, but it will cost you dearly--Having dealt with a number of millionaires over the years, many are in constant fear of being conned; for the most part, they truly trust NOONE (that includes spouses and children--think secret overseas accounts), always worried about taxes to point of obsession, constantly questioning the motives of everyone around them. So all those who think making lots of money will solve your problems, think again--you would be just trading in one set of problems for a new and even BIGGER set. Its great to have money, just don't let money control YOU.

JJ

[tubaforce]

Like I mentioned earlier, a job that paid 10 bucks an hour in the '60's might pay 40 bucks an hour today! How much was a Miraphone Tuba back then? Now? You could buy a really nice home in a nice part of L.A.(working class) for 20K, and now that same home is over 300K! What's wrong with that picture? I don't work any less hard than my Grandpa did(although we DO work much SAFER today), and my 40 bucks an hour barely buys 1/3 of what his 10 bucks did! My insurance is 9 bucks an hour, and I still have a co-pay of $20.00!Grandpa's insurance was $1.00 at the highest, and NO co-pay! And I'm supposed to believe it's ok that executive pay has risen EXPONENTIALLY in relation to the rest of our wages? I am not buying that! Al.

[MaryAnn]

Some of you have probably idly seen a TV show about someone with what is called "hoarding syndrome." These people live in appalling circumstances because they cannot let go of anything, and their time is spent seeking and acquiring more. Their houses are filled with what I would call worthless junk, but to them it feels secure, somehow. There are people with immense amounts of money out there who basically have hoarding syndrome only as applied to money; their bank accounts are amazingly fat while their living circumstances appear to be of someone with little to no money. I don't see this as any healthier than the person with a more broader-based hoarding syndrome, but as adults it is their choice, even if it is driven by fear of loss.

Oh, and on Bloke's and my "friendship," since we've never met we are neither "friends" nor "not friends." I guess we're not enemies, since we both view the other's posts (AFAIK, anyway) so it's in the vast middle ground of cyberspacial relationships.



MA

[TMurphy]

I also linked this article to Facebook last week, commenting that my "music education" degree must rank at #5.5. Truthfully, as applies to myself and teachers in this area, the numbers are inaccurate.

I started teaching 3 years ago, with a starting salary of $43K. Now, three years later, I make $48K. Much higher than the averages posted in the article mentioned. Of course, cost of living in NJ is fairly high....I pay $1300 a month for my two bedroom apartment on a quiet street, with back-yard access. Around here, most homes sell for $250K and up. Money does not go very far here in NJ.

And to satisfy bloke, no one is forcing me to stay in this job, or to stay in this state. I grew up here, my family is here (and I kinda like them, and being near them), so I choose to stay. I like my job. It's fun at times, and very satisfying. I fully realize I could be making a sh!t-ton more money doing something else, but I *choose* not to. I believe in what I do, and it pays me well enough that I can live comfortably. I'm ok with that.

-Tim Murphy, fortunate enough to be one of the few untenured NJ teachers NOT losing his job.

[tubaforce]

Hello again! No, there is no law requiring one stay in ANY city or state! At least none that I know of! The Executive pay reference comes from the many articles in Time, Newsweek, the internet and other sources! No, I can't name anyone personally that isn't already in the public eye!There are nice areas around the L.A . area! I chose to leave for the Pacific Northwest years ago, but I have friends and family still living in that area. Actually, I earn a higher wage in Portland, and even better in Seattle, than folks in southern California make in my trade. My main beef is the fact that our American middle class is disappearing, almost deliberately being exterminated! Yes I'm tired of the left wingers' hunger for my taxes, but I'm damn sick and tired of the far right attitude that Plumbers, Pipe Fitters, Electricians, Iron Workers, etc.. are overpaid and stupid! We (skilled tradesmen) constantly upgrade our skills and knowledge, so that we can perform our jobs in a manner that PROTECTS the public interest, while reducing cost overruns and re-work! I know people that lost good jobs at Hanford Nuclear site because they had the conscience, and knowledge of what was right to blow the "whistle" on a contractor! They recently prevailed in court, but it was a long fight and cost those men a lot in lost wages! Are you aware that a person earning 30-50 dollars an hour, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year is in the top 5% of U.S. in earnings? Sounds great until you realize just how much that money WON'T buy compared to the wages earned by the same tradesmen in the '60's! What do the rest of the folks do to survive? How can it be ok that a man making 15 bucks an hour has to have his wife work too, and MAYBE scrimp by enough to buy a home? And that 15 bucks came at the expense of a college degree! I don't know what the solution to saving the middle class is. Certainly not the extreme socialist attitude of the left! I mean, why should any person be "rewarded" for their ingenuity and success with a 90% tax rate? But the right's treatment of us as a cheap labor pool is certainly not helping! Al.

[sloan]

Are you aware that a person earning 30-50 dollars an hour, 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year is in the top 5% of U.S. in earnings?

If so, why would you call such a person "middle-class"?