The all round British EEb

[Donn]

iiipopes - which tuba takes more air, the Besson or the 186? I feel like my Boosey&Hawkes Imperial takes more air than my 1291BBb and gives back a lot less sound. I use a PT48+ on both. (The Imperial has a larger reciever fitted).

They both take about the same amount of air.

Since I regularly read reports of one tuba or another that takes more air, from players who ought to be pretty good and also present themselves as pretty thoughtful individuals here, I'm guessing that either 1) "about" the same leaves a lot of room for variation, 2) we aren't all talking about the same thing, or 3) we aren't playing the same tubas.

For all the static wave theory, don't forget that you do have to expel air though the tuba, and kind of a lot of it compared to a smaller brass instrument.

The tubas? You can find at least one report that a Miraphone 1291 takes more air than average. I wouldn't have guessed that termite's Imperial would take even more, but I wonder if here we're talking about the efficiency of the respective tubas. His 1291 in good condition, doesn't make him work so hard as the Imperial ... maybe a leak or two? valve alignment? Or maybe it is a characteristic of the instrument, as for example one reads consistently about the larger Rudolph Meinls.

What is it - "more air"? Termite, can you play a note longer, at the same volume, on the 1291, or is this more about perceived effort, need for more rigorous breath support, something like that?

[sloan]

Why does my brain hurt after reading iiipopes posts?

Daily (mental) exercise can help.

[sloan]

For all the static wave theory, don't forget that you do have to expel air though the tuba, and kind of a lot of it compared to a smaller brass instrument.

Why?

[Donn]

For all the static wave theory, don't forget that you do have to expel air though the tuba, and kind of a lot of it compared to a smaller brass instrument.

Why?

OK, you got me - strictly speaking you don't have to put any air into a tuba - we all know lots of people who don't, and there's nothing wrong with it.

[sloan]

For all the static wave theory, don't forget that you do have to expel air though the tuba, and kind of a lot of it compared to a smaller brass instrument.

Why?

OK, you got me - strictly speaking you don't have to put any air into a tuba - we all know lots of people who don't, and there's nothing wrong with it.

You avoid the question. "We all know" that you need lots of air to produce lots of buzz - but once the buzz happens, you give no reason why the size of the rest of the apparatus matters. How much air you need might depend on how *resonant* the bugle is - but, as far as I can tell, the size hardly matters.

Now...*perhaps* the bore of the leadpipe matters....

And...as has been determined experimentally, the *pitch* of the note sounded matters.

But, as has also been determined experimentally, the same pitch sounded on instruments of wildly different sizes...requires the *same* amount of air. Find a trumpet and a tuba, and a way to measure your airflow, and play "middle C" on each instrument. Report your results. PowerPoint is not necessary, but Excel charts would be appreciated.

[Donn]

Don't know. From the point of view of someone interested in the playing characteristics of various large Eb tubas, I imagine the Excel spreadsheet isn't going to be a lot of help.

If people who play different tubas really feel that there is no difference in this respect, then we're sure wasting time on this, but actually we're following up on a post from someone who did feel that there was a difference. We've all read other claims of a difference. Some tubas, they say, take more air. Look for any comments about larger Rudolph Meinl tubas, see if anyone fails to mention it. Something's going on here, whether it turns up in the Excel spreadsheet or not.

Maybe it's real but misnamed - not literally the flow of air in volume per time, it just feels like it. I really don't think it's like people think tuba X takes more air than tuba Y because they've been influenced by their peers or something, so it seems a little like theoretical proof that the bumble bee can't fly: it just invites more work on the theory.

[termite]

Hmm, I go away for a few hours to sleep and look what happens.

Yes, when I say that the Imperial takes more air I think what I really mean is that I find myself blowing the guts out of it trying to make it resonate the same as the 1291. I haven't tested how long I can hold a given note on each instrument.

Andy Cat - thanks for the links, I've watched the first few seconds of the first one in between typing this and getting kids dressed.

Regards

Gerard

[iiipopes]

iiipopes - which tuba takes more air, the Besson or the 186? I feel like my Boosey&Hawkes Imperial takes more air than my 1291BBb and gives back a lot less sound. I use a PT48+ on both. (The Imperial has a larger reciever fitted).

They both take about the same amount of air.

Since I regularly read reports of one tuba or another that takes more air, from players who ought to be pretty good and also present themselves as pretty thoughtful individuals here, I'm guessing that either 1) "about" the same leaves a lot of room for variation, 2) we aren't all talking about the same thing, or 3) we aren't playing the same tubas.

Actually, I said "about" because I don't have any apparatus to quantify any data. As far as the rest of the post directed at Termite, I'll add anecdotally that, on either of the tubas, for the same dynamic, my breath can play the same pitched note about the same duration using the Kanstul mouthpiece in both of them. Again, I say "about," because I haven't taken a stop watch to it, but when I play the same music, overall it plays about the same for me on either horn as far as phrasing and such in the grand scheme of things. In other words, on one horn I may play a phrase of so many measures and get to the end. And that will happen on the other horn as well. There is not a situation where I play, for example, a four measure phrase and run out of air before the end on one but still have air left over on the other. Now, as I said earlier, each horn has its quirks, and if one of those quirks comes up, then more effort may be necessary to even things out for something centered around a quirk, but that is a note or two, not the entire instrument, and definitely not the entire breath support.

[tubaforce]

Hi! It's funny how we perceive things! That big horn sure ought to take more air! But in actuality, I "think" I use less air to play a 20--X Conn than my 186 size Cerveney, using the same Helleburg mouthpeice! Especially when playing long, sustained notes at ANY dynamic level! I had a woodwind Prof. in College who was reportedly kicked out of Eastman decades ago for dispelling so called "common Knowledge" about what happens inside one's mouth when articulating a single(Clarinet) reed instrument! The Prof. and another person coated their mouth cavities with some sort of dye, and X-rayed each other! I certainly wouldn't expect such risky(BOTH men are long gone now!) methodology, but there's gotta be SOMEONE out there who could definitively answer our air flow questions! Al.

[Wyvern]

Hi! It's funny how we perceive things! That big horn sure ought to take more air! But in actuality, I "think" I use less air to play a 20--X Conn than my 186 size Cerveney, using the same Helleburg mouthpeice!

That is my perception playing my 6/4 Neptune against 4/4 PT-20 (or British EEb when I had one) - the big tuba requires less effort (effort=air) to produce the desired sound

I definitely think some tubas (regardless of their size) are more air efficient than others. Some really suck the air, while others only require one to breath into them to produce a rich tone.