Recommendation for High School Owned Euphoniums

[Al]

Our local High School will be adding 2 Euphoniums this year to its Band Program with more than 300 players. The Director is unhappy with the valve durability of the Yamaha 321's they own and asked my opinion about replacements since he knows I play a Willson 2900.

So, any suggestions for high quality and durable High School level Euphoniums for this Band in a well off district? The students do not trash the schools instruments, but they do get lots of wear over many years.

[djwesp]

The Director is unhappy with the valve durability of the Yamaha 321's

I don't follow. Mechanically, I think the set up is very durable. The yamaha (older) metal valve guides and the covered metal valve guides (newer), both hold up extremely well. They are far superior to the delrin/nylon washers some euphoniums use.

The valves are also fairly true and fairly tight and seem to hold up well in the long term.

No horn can be recommended that will overcome poor daily care. If the valves aren't holding up now, then the issue is of care, not durability. Oil the valves daily like they are supposed to and I don't see a single issue arising.

[euphomate]

The valves are also fairly true and fairly tight and seem to hold up well in the long term.

I totally agree. I've owned a number of Yamaha horns over the years and never had an issue with valves. But there again I'm careful with oiling and routine cleaning. My current 642 euphonium has the smoothest and quietest valves I've ever had on a euph. For high school use though, I recommend the King 2280. I own one, and have found it to be a superior horn to the Yamaha 321. Bigger sound, large mouthpiece receiver, sturdily built and they now come standard with a set of metal valve guides for school use, plus a nylon set if preferred.

[druby]

Biggest issue with the valves on the Yamaha 321 and 201 is:

The valve guides are held in place by a washer that sits on shoulder of the valve stem. Students like to play with the valve buttons by twisting them back and forth. This can loosen the stem which will loosen the guide on the horns. The student then re-tightens the stem and button but the guide has now come out of alignment slightly, usually bottoming in the guide slot. The valve then starts to bind. The student then poors volumes of oil on the piston thinking it is just normal dryness. Unfortunatly the valve will continue to stick until someone loosens the stem again and reseats the valve guide properly. This has happened a number of times with the 201's at my school and with 321's that I have helped others with.

Aside from very close tolerances on brand new horns that cause some binding if not kept real clean, the "misaligned" guide is is the biggest issue with Yamaha valves. This can be an issue with either the new or old horns since the guides will move back and forth some when the stem is loosened.

Doug

[Al]

Thanks for the replies.

The misaligned valve guide problem was the issue described by the Band Director.

I will pass on the King 2280 recommendation to him. Any other instrument suggestions?

[iiipopes]

If the budget can't swing the King, then the new Jupiters are also better than they used to be. They have the advantage that the leadpipe and valve block are modular for easier maintenance, they now have steel valves, and the metal is better quality. Now, if they would just extend those improvements to their souzys.

I HATE Yamaha valves. Let me tell you how I really feel: I HATE Yamaha valves. What is said above about bad design is true. My tech tells me that half his time is Yamaha valve work: rerounding casings, fixing guides, etc., not because of abuse, but because of insufficient design, insufficient thickness of metal, insufficient viability of the parts, and, yes, I'll actually say it: too close tolerances. Yamaha strives for about a half-thou to a thou, when one to two thou would be much better, with much less sticking.

Now, as far as configuration, a standard 4-valve non-compensating horn is better for this age. Think about it: these horns are for section work. Unlike a soloist horn, there is very little repertoire in a sectional sense that goes low enough to really require the comp loops. Usually it goes up, for things like countermelodies in marches. The only mid range notes that are affected are (concert notation bass clef) 2nd line B nat and 1st ledger line E nat. Even then, 2+4 is lippable, and not often called for. Everything else is the same whether or not the euph is comp or non-comp.

[Dan Schultz]

Doug's advice is right on.

There's nothing wrong with the Yamaha euphs that a little care won't cure.

IF the student 'fiddles' with the stem to the point that the valve guide actually raises off the top of the piston and rotates... the guide can be relocated into the vent hole instead of the alignment hole. This will cause the horn to cease to play.

[Al]

"Before I was married, I don't recall dating any women based on their 'durability'."

Bloke,

If my love first passed through the hands of a dozen teenage boys in as many years, I very well might choose durability over beauty.

Al