Problems with open throat & warm air...

[superflatA3]

I preach to my students to use an open throat and warm air for beautiful tone production. However, in my own practice of these techniques, my throat dries up and becomes very sore after hours of practice. This also frequently happens when I work on multiphonics.

I've searched the archives and haven't found anyone else with this common concern.

If you've experienced a similar problem with sore throat when playing with an open throat in both multiphonics AND daily practice, your advice would be helpful!

Thank you.

[Funcoot]

I often find my mouth becoming dry, but I don't believe I have ever gotten a sore throat, not from playing with an open throat anyways (I read arguments that said the throat cannot "open" anymore than it normally is). Any sore throats I've gotten were probably from playing on instruments that were not properly cleaned after a season of use.

[imperialbari]

Are you drinking enough water?

Klaus

[BopEuph]

I remember some talk about "opening your throat" when I was at FSU. The bottom line wasn't to open your throat, it was to instead relax. The air will open the throat as much as needed.

The sore throat is most likely from not having water nearby. I was on tour playing bass bone in China last winter, and being from Florida, the air was incredibly dry. I found that I couldn't even make it to intermission without a water bottle next to me during the shows. My throat would not only be dry, but hurt. The dryness definitely hindered my playing.

Getting water on the stage proved to be tricky, because most of the performing arts halls in China had a strict "no water" rule in the hall for even the performers. I had to make sure I had a water bottle, which meant bringing my own in case all they had were cups, and putting it in my jacket pocket and sneaking it on stage with me. I guess they didn't want water spilling...which is pointless to tell a brass player!

Nick

[BopEuph]

Also, since you're from Denton, I hope you're at least getting lessons with Dr. Bowman here and there.

Nick

[superflatA3]

Are you drinking enough water?

Klaus

I do tend to under hydrate myself on a daily basis so that is definitely a possibility. But when I do drink water to easy the irritation, the problem continues not but minutes after. I heard somewhere that you should hydrate hours before you need it- this could be the answer to my problem. Thanks!

I remember some talk about "opening your throat" when I was at FSU. The bottom line wasn't to open your throat, it was to instead relax. The air will open the throat as much as needed.

I like this idea of relaxing your throat instead of focusing on opening it. I could see this helping with deleting tension in other areas involved with breathing too.

Thanks all.

[Funcoot]

Yeah, I remember when I was learning to play tuba. Being told to open my throat really only worsened some of my problems. I just try and relax and try to imagine filling the room with a dark tone.

[BopEuph]

It's not an open throat you want, it's a raised uvula. But as uvula sounds like a dirty word to some, we never say it that way.
I think the best way to express the "Open throat" thing is to imitate an opera singer.
Just my two cents. FWIW

[Roger Lewis]

I ran into this problem many years ago in my own playing after working on multiphonics for quite a bit in the practice room. This is one reason I tell my students NOT to attempt multiphonics until I have a chance to explain to them what the "by products" are.

I would bet $5.00 that you have, because of your extensive practice of multiphonics, begun to "cough" the attack rather than blow the air to the tongue and let the tongue act as the release valve. You are now letting the throat do this and there is probably a sound of air before the note begins to sound when you are attacking a note (symptom). The throat is now acting as the tongue and this will lead to the sore throat that you are now experiencing because you are actually coughing every single attacked note, drying out the throat and oral cavity which leads to the irritation of the sensitive tissue in the throat..

You've set a precedent of closing the airway to create the multiphonics and now have ingrained a habit that is going to be, at least in my own experience, tough to change.

Now what you need to begin doing is practicing a true air attack with the diaphragm doing the work for a while, working at keeping the throat completely open and relaxed and not using the tongue at all for a while. Then start to work in a very soft attack - still controlling the air with the diaphragm and focusing on blowing to the tongue.

Over time you will ingrain a new habit to replace the existing habit. It may take as long as 30 days. For me it took a year! I still do exercises each day to make sure that I am not using a throat attack every day as it is sometimes extremely difficult to change what you cannot see but can only feel.

Sorry for the bad news, but this is something I warn my students about and do not let them try until I know that their fundamentals are strong and can warn them of the issues that can come along with multiphonics and also with working extensively with circular breathing - another technique that requires closing the throat.

I sincerely wish you all the best on this and if I can help, give me a call at 800-348-5003, wait a second then press 1, wait another second and press 1 again, then dial my extensions - either 2266 or 3266.

Roger

[b.williams]

One way to properly open your throat for singing (raise your uvula) is to imagine the feeling you get at the peak of a yawn (when you relax and your throat opens wide). Caution, thinking about this feeling may cause unwanted yawns.
One ways to properly open your throat for brass playing is to think yawn and silently breath. Chances are if there is a sound the uvula is down.

[BopEuph]

Seriously, why are we talking about how to "open your throat" or "raise your uvula"? Just play!

Oh, and make sure to properly engage your biceps and hands when picking up that tuba. Your picking up things technique can improve if you think about it more.

[pgym]

Seriously, why are we talking about how to "open your throat" or "raise your uvula"? Just play!

You mean "just play" like beginners, where they raise their shoulders when they inhale, puff out their cheeks, crane their necks, jam the mouthpiece against their face, and tense every muscle they can think of when they blow? Sure, it sounds like crap and may be physically injurious, but hey, they're playing, and that's the most important thing, right? Technique? Tone quality? Those are for losers.

Just play, baby!

Yeah.

Right.

[BopEuph]

You mean "just play" like beginners, where they raise their shoulders when they inhale, puff out their cheeks, crane their necks, jam the mouthpiece against their face, and tense every muscle they can think of when they blow? Sure, it sounds like crap and may be physically injurious, but hey, they're playing, and that's the most important thing, right? Technique? Tone quality? Those are for losers.

And the TNFJ can help them just as well as a teacher sitting next to them can?

"Open your throat" is a concept not needed. "Raise your uvula"...well, if you don't see how funny that one sounds, then I can't help you. Never have any of my teachers told me either of those phrases, nor should some people sitting on the other end of a computer screen. I don't tell my students those things, and they do just fine.

A much better teacher than an internet forum is the "beginner's" ear. No, the ear can't teach them everything, but if they have a problem, they should be going to someone in person. There is nothing you can do to fix it. I have been asked to teach on some websites over webcam, and I have been weighing the pros and cons since. I can SEE the student, but I still won't be able to hear a good characteristic sound from a computer mic to computer speakers sent compressed over the internet.

I'm not here to cause an argument, but I remember a teacher of mine laughing at another concept that wasn't needed when thinking about taking a breath. He said "just take a #*$&%$ breath!"

[Tubadork]

Seriously, why are we talking about how to "open your throat" or "raise your uvula"? Just play!

You mean "just play" like beginners, where they raise their shoulders when they inhale, puff out their cheeks, crane their necks, jam the mouthpiece against their face, and tense every muscle they can think of when they blow? Sure, it sounds like crap and may be physically injurious, but hey, they're playing, and that's the most important thing, right? Technique? Tone quality? Those are for losers.

Just play, baby!

Yeah.

Right.

Hey,
I think we have to be careful here, you can think of tuba like a car. There are times in which you do have to get under the hood and check things out in the practice room and then there is more often than not the times where you have to put your hands at 10 and 2, know where you are going and put your foot on the gas.

The more that you focus on the product that you want, ie how you want to sound, the better. The body is very powerful and will do what you ask it to, but it might not be in the way you want it to. Even Jacobs said to think of 90% song and 10% wind. We as a community of tuba players have gone to 70% breath, 29% embouchure and body and 1% wind, I am/ was just as guilty and i can tell you, I know where that line of thinking leads and it's nowhere good.

What has helped is focusing back on that 90% song and 10% blowing and maybe a percent somewhere in there to keep a relaxed body at all times. A mirror can also be a helpful tool, just to check in and see what is going on and not a device to try to control the body.

The body if giving clear instructions on what you want coupled with trial and error can do amazing things. If the body is given instructions on how to play, coupled with fear and terror the end result can be devastating to your playing

So my long winded advice for the OP is to relax the body, focus on the air leaving your body and most importantly the sound you want to hear and be gentle with yourself and your progress. I hope this helps a little bit, if you want any advice, please send me a pm and I would be more than happy to try to help.
Bill

[Euphistuba]

About hydration...... its true that we need to be well hydrated. Its not however true that drinking lots of water hours before you need it is particularly helpful.....unless you enjoy going to the bathroom more frequently. It only take the body 20-30 min to process water. If it needs it, it will get to its proper spot, if not its eliminated.
Ive found that a small drink 8oz or so a little before I practice, and then a bottle kept with me..... (usually water ) works best.

Craig....

[BAtlas]

Now, I'm not here to get into who's right or who's wrong but rather to offer my own experience.

I've practiced Multiphonics extensively, especially in recent times. Having water around at all times is a must, if you mouth feels even a little dry you should drink water IMMEDIATELY.

I don't have $5.00 to bet against Mr. Lewis, but there is definitely a certain amount of tolerance to doing multiphonics. If you start to cough, or feel sore, stop. If it doesn't feel good, stop. This should be your bottom line. My voice will get sore if I do multiphonics for enough time, but after doing them as much as I have it takes me a good 2 hours to really feel it like you are describing.

This thread reminds me of some Arnold Jacobs quotes about how we should play by sound and not by feel.

[Roger Lewis]

On hydration, a truly great professional player that I know has a saying on this: "Your pee should be clear for at least two weeks before an audition".

When it is yellow it shows that your hydration level is low. When it is clear you are well hydrated and ready to operate at your best.

Just a little info.

Roger