Bruckner 7 Bass or Contrabass?

[tubainty]

I'm playing this excerpt in 2 weeks and was wondering what tubeneters thought the appropriate tuba would be for this work.

[UTSAtuba]

I'm not a professional, but I'm quite positive a contrabass is what you need.

Joseph

[Wyvern]

Contrabass!

The work was inspired by Wagner and uses Wagner tubas like the Ring, so contrabass provides the appropriate tone
...but some professional players choose to use bass tuba for certain high sections

[tubainty]

Yes, CC was my first thought but one of my friends (a trombonist) asked if I was going to play it on F or CC and i thought about how it would sound on F. But CC is what I will go with

I'm playing this excerpt in 2 weeks and was wondering what tubeneters thought the appropriate tuba would be for this work.

I agree, but we only got the music today at our first studio class. I wish we'd had it earlier but this really puts the pressure on. Only two excerpts to prepare though, Prokofiev 5 and Bruckner 7.

I'm looking forward to working on these pieces.

[UDELBR]

In the Nowak editions 4-6 are marked "BassTuba", and 7-9 are marked KontraBassTuba. The writing in each of these is characteristic for the instrument it's marked for.

[ckalaher1]

I've never heard of anyone (at least here in the states), who uses a bass tuba on this part. I could see using an F on his Symphony #4 or #6, given the right set of circumstances.

Anyhow, Contrabass all the way on 7.

Best of luck getting a handle on it in 2 weeks.

[Wyvern]

I've never heard of anyone (at least here in the states), who uses a bass tuba on this part.

I have a video of Bruckner 7 played by the Vienna Philharmonic where the tubist switches between Kaiser BBb and F, while I have seen it played with Eb in British orchestras, although that practice is getting less common as increasing number of British tubists play CC.

I understand it works better on CC than BBb. At least Gene Pokorny told me he was playing it on the York CC, in preference to his Fafner BBb.

[TexTuba]

I've never heard of anyone (at least here in the states), who uses a bass tuba on this part.

I may be wrong, but I'm sure I saw the tubist with the Cleveland Orchestra use an F for the first and third movements of B7. It was on PBS fairly recently.

[imperialbari]

I've never heard of anyone (at least here in the states), who uses a bass tuba on this part.

I may be wrong, but I'm sure I saw the tubist with the Cleveland Orchestra use an F for the first and third movements of B7. It was on PBS fairly recently.

What you saw in the Cleveland performance reflects the 1885 score issued in leipzig and Vienna by the Albert J. Gutmann edition. This score has Bass Tuba (original German spelling) in the first and third movements, whereas it has Contrabass-Tuba in the second and fourth movements. Alone from the scoring of the brasses this makes good sense, as the send and fourth movements alone employ the quartet of Wagner Tuben (here only named Tuben, which is the German plural form).

The 2nd movement opens in a 5 part setting of the Tuben and the Contrabass-Tuba doubled in the low strings. 5 bars before C the Contrabass-Tuba plays in octaves with the bass trombone, whereas it plays in octaves with the 4th of the Tuben, which here goes to the bottom of the bass stave (it is written Treble Clef F sounding a whole step over somewhat similar brass band notation of the Eb tuba).

Klaus

[imperialbari]

A few score samples illustrating my above posting:

[J.c. Sherman]

imperialbari is balls-on. Yasu is well equipped for music - and well informed - of this style and period. He's actually very sensative about tuba choice... more than most I've known.

J.c.S.

[TexTuba]

imperialbari is balls-on. Yasu is well equipped for music - and well informed - of this style and period. He's actually very sensative about tuba choice... more than most I've known.

J.c.S.

Is Yasu the tubist in Cleveland? If so, then yes, he sounded incredible.

[imperialbari]

Skærmbillede 2010-09-05 kl. 06.43.27.png

[ckalaher1]

Good for him. He's a great player from what I hear, and I've got to appreciate his approach on this. Cool news if in fact he is switching between movements. It's not like trumpet players don't do it in orchestras. While I had never heard of anyone playing it in the states on anything other than C, it looks like he's thinking outside the box by doing exactly what the music asks for.

[Wyvern]

This score has Bass Tuba (original German spelling) in the first and third movements, whereas it has Contrabass-Tuba in the second and fourth movements. Alone from the scoring of the brasses this makes good sense, as the send and fourth movements alone employ the quartet of Wagner Tuben (here only named Tuben, which is the German plural form).

So are we assuming Bruckner intended the tubist to change from bass to contrabass tubas for different movements? I have always thought the reason for the different markings between movements is that the lower Wagner Tuba is labelled 'basstuba', so the real tuba is marked 'contrabasstuba' to differentiate in movements they both play?

I have got recording of the Cleveland Bruckner 7 performance, so must have a careful listen to see what it sounds like with switch. I am particularly interested as I have this work in a November concert, so need to decide if to play all on my Neptune, or partially switch to F.

[imperialbari]

From what I could see by eyeing though the part in the score, there is a range difference. The Bass Tuba goes down to Bb below the staff. The Contrabass Tuba goes to E a tritone lower. The Bass also is taken higher than the Contrabass. I think Bruckner used an absolute terminology, not one relative to the Tuben, which as far as I known always were employed in quartets until Stravinsky used two Bb tenors only in the Rite. And hence always were named in the plural form of Tuben in German scores

Wagner Tuben are insanely costly, or at least used to be so until the arrival of Chinese made compensating double tubas in Bb and F (same compensating system as used with horns). These are maybe in the Euro 1000 or less range. But especially their F side is considered useless. Yet they have influenced the market, so that I could come by a Hoyer Wagner Tuba in F with 5 valves. Not at all that cheap, but cheaper than anything else seen over the years from a real maker. My point being: how does an English amateur orchestra man these parts, which even some professionals find hard to manage?

Klaus

[imperialbari]

What you describe from the US doesn’t surprise me too much, as others have told similar stories in horn contexts. In Denmark I only have heard and heard about WT’s being used in either orchestras with 8 tenured players (with 4 assigned to WT’s) or in collaborations between two orchestras, where the WT’s then always are played by the section of the same orchestra, so that they have the instruments permanently.

Some German orchestras have 8 or 12 players with the same four always playing the WT parts.

The previous owner of mine (in F) is an American living in Belgium and playing in a German opera house. He had two and kept the smaller one, which was easier to play, whereas mine has a bigger and richer sound. I find it very tough to play accurately in the upper midrange, if I don’t have a very good day. Whereas my relaxed embouchure and acquaintance with tubas lets me go lower than the previous owner found comfortable.

More on topic: I really wanted to know how a UK amateur orchestra manned these parts. The opening of the 2nd movement is doubled in the strings, but it clearly is a WT + tuba quintet.

Less on topic: Some Hollywood movie composers started using Wagner tubas. There is a rumour that composers/arrangers with horn friends now write in WT passages in many scores to secure the players a doubling fee.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

More on topic: I really wanted to know how a UK amateur orchestra manned these parts. The opening of the 2nd movement is doubled in the strings, but it clearly is a WT + tuba quintet.

I am playing Bruckner 7 with such an amateur orchestra in November, so will have to see how they manage.

For my own regular orchestra, which is semi-pro at the top end of 'amateur' orchestras - they would probably hire in Wagner Tubas with players from the local professional orchestra who frequently dep in our orchestra.

[tclements]

I'd go contra.....

[toobagrowl]

The 6th-9th or 6th-13th call local horn players are hired to play them, have access them to mess around with for a couple of weeks in advance, and generally crack a lot of pitches in the rehearsals and especially during the concerts.

LOL