Bruckner 7 Bass or Contrabass?

[imperialbari]

From what I could see by eyeing though the part in the score, there is a range difference. The Bass Tuba goes down to Bb below the staff. The Contrabass Tuba goes to E a tritone lower. The Bass also is taken higher than the Contrabass. I think Bruckner used an absolute terminology, not one relative to the Tuben, which as far as I known always were employed in quartets until Stravinsky used two Bb tenors only in the Rite. And hence always were named in the plural form of Tuben in German scores

Wagner Tuben are insanely costly, or at least used to be so until the arrival of Chinese made compensating double tubas in Bb and F (same compensating system as used with horns). These are maybe in the Euro 1000 or less range. But especially their F side is considered useless. Yet they have influenced the market, so that I could come by a Hoyer Wagner Tuba in F with 5 valves. Not at all that cheap, but cheaper than anything else seen over the years from a real maker. My point being: how does an English amateur orchestra man these parts, which even some professionals find hard to manage?

Klaus

[imperialbari]

What you describe from the US doesn’t surprise me too much, as others have told similar stories in horn contexts. In Denmark I only have heard and heard about WT’s being used in either orchestras with 8 tenured players (with 4 assigned to WT’s) or in collaborations between two orchestras, where the WT’s then always are played by the section of the same orchestra, so that they have the instruments permanently.

Some German orchestras have 8 or 12 players with the same four always playing the WT parts.

The previous owner of mine (in F) is an American living in Belgium and playing in a German opera house. He had two and kept the smaller one, which was easier to play, whereas mine has a bigger and richer sound. I find it very tough to play accurately in the upper midrange, if I don’t have a very good day. Whereas my relaxed embouchure and acquaintance with tubas lets me go lower than the previous owner found comfortable.

More on topic: I really wanted to know how a UK amateur orchestra manned these parts. The opening of the 2nd movement is doubled in the strings, but it clearly is a WT + tuba quintet.

Less on topic: Some Hollywood movie composers started using Wagner tubas. There is a rumour that composers/arrangers with horn friends now write in WT passages in many scores to secure the players a doubling fee.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

More on topic: I really wanted to know how a UK amateur orchestra manned these parts. The opening of the 2nd movement is doubled in the strings, but it clearly is a WT + tuba quintet.

I am playing Bruckner 7 with such an amateur orchestra in November, so will have to see how they manage.

For my own regular orchestra, which is semi-pro at the top end of 'amateur' orchestras - they would probably hire in Wagner Tubas with players from the local professional orchestra who frequently dep in our orchestra.

[tclements]

I'd go contra.....

[toobagrowl]

The 6th-9th or 6th-13th call local horn players are hired to play them, have access them to mess around with for a couple of weeks in advance, and generally crack a lot of pitches in the rehearsals and especially during the concerts.

LOL

[imperialbari]

The 6th-9th or 6th-13th call local horn players are hired to play them, have access them to mess around with for a couple of weeks in advance, and generally crack a lot of pitches in the rehearsals and especially during the concerts.

LOL

Even more funny than asking how many calls the 6th-9th or 6th-13th call local tuba players get for orchestral jobs.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

A very unusual sample of playing the tenor Bb Wagner tuba:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9baGZRil0

I am not even sure this smooth and extremely controlled sound is typical for the instrument species.

Klaus

[Biggs]

A very unusual sample of playing the tenor Bb Wagner tuba:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9baGZRil0

I am not even sure this smooth and extremely controlled sound is typical for the instrument species.

Klaus

Is there any reason that the player would choose Wagner tuba over the more traditional horn option? ...beyond, I suppose deliberate scoring on the part of the composer (I am skeptical of this possibility, but it is a very valid possibility nonetheless)

[imperialbari]

There may be the option that the quintet commissioned this scoring by the arranger. This exceptional fine playing of the WT fits the music very well, at least in my ears.

Another odd sample is the video where Øystein Baadsvik plays a solo with the Bay Brass ensemble of SF. There Bob Ward, solo horn of the SF symphony, plays the 3rd horn part on his tenor Bb Wagner tuba.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

A very unusual sample of playing the tenor Bb Wagner tuba:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9baGZRil0

I am not even sure this smooth and extremely controlled sound is typical for the instrument species.

Klaus

This was just wonderful! Thanks Klaus!

[jeopardymaster]

Just one more from the cheap seats: a few years ago I attended a performance of Bruckner 7 by the Tokyo Philharmonic. I can't remember the tubist's name but he was stellar, as was the orchestra. He switched between what appeared to be a Yamayork and what appeared to be an 822 F, consistent with what has been described hereinabove. If given the chance I will probably switch off too. The last time (first and only time as well) I played this piece, 30+ years ago, I used a Cerveny Kaiser BBb and got a lot of "palm" from the conductor in the sections marked for basstuba.

[Roger Lewis]

As I understand it, Bruckner was working on this piece when he learned of Wagner's death and he wrote the slow movement as a tribute to him. That would explain the scoring since the tuben are named after him and Wagner was instrumental in pushing for the development of the contrabass tuba.

I prefer a contrabass tuba for this as it allows (for my tastes) a better blend and adds a bit of depth to the low brass choir sections.

Just my $0.02.

Roger

[Chris Olka]

Just one more from the cheap seats: a few years ago I attended a performance of Bruckner 7 by the Tokyo Philharmonic. I can't remember the tubist's name but he was stellar, as was the orchestra. He switched between what appeared to be a Yamayork and what appeared to be an 822 F, consistent with what has been described hereinabove. If given the chance I will probably switch off too. The last time (first and only time as well) I played this piece, 30+ years ago, I used a Cerveny Kaiser BBb and got a lot of "palm" from the conductor in the sections marked for basstuba.

Shin Ogino is the tubist in Tokyo Philharmonic. A great player and fantastic human being. He plays on a Nirschl 6/4 and if it was piston f tuba then it was his Hirsbrunner f tuba. Played Fantastique with him last week. Really fun time.

Chris Olka
Seattle Symphony
Seattle Opera

[jeopardymaster]

Thanks Chris. It's been a while and I was pretty far away in Suntori Hall so Nirschl and Hirsbrunner sound very likely - both were silver, both were piston. And both extremely well-played.

[Wyvern]

More on topic: I really wanted to know how a UK amateur orchestra manned these parts. The opening of the 2nd movement is doubled in the strings, but it clearly is a WT + tuba quintet.

I am playing Bruckner 7 with such an amateur orchestra in November, so will have to see how they manage.

I played the symphony yesterday - the way that that particular orchestra managed was to use French Horns on the Wagner tuben parts (they had in total 8 horns) which seemed to work fine - sounded really quite good IMHO.

Interestingly the conductor decided to play the inner movements in the order of Scherzo, then Adagio which I have not heard done before.

Regarding the initial question of which tuba - I used my Neptune, but now I know the tuba part in context believe that a bass tuba on the 1st and 3rd (Scherzo) movements as marked on the score may well work better. If I get to play the symphony again in the future, that is what I would use, switching to CC for Adagio and last movements.

[imperialbari]

You certainly must be congratulated on having such fine performance opportunities as an amateur!

As for using horns as substitutes for Wagner Tuben, then that possibly is the best choice, if that rare instrumentation otherwise would exclude the performance of this music. The players and the mouthpieces would be the same, and the instruments would have the exact same ranges (only that the horns likely are double horns today).

Klaus

[cambrook]

In the past I've played it all on contrabass, but when it comes up next year I plan to use both F and CC, swapping between movements.

Looking at the score it makes good sense, and I figure that if Vienna and Berlin do it then it's worth trying. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes

Cheers

Cam