How to deal with a *BAD* player

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Alex C
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by Alex C »

k001k47 wrote:Community band: serious business.
D*^% right! Community band members aren't about playing, they are about territory! And don't try to mess with their territory! If you do, then you'll find out what artistic temperment really is.

I think that it is usually the lack of clear goals by the board which causes the problems. Most conductors will do what the board tells them to do if backed up. My evil eye is parked firmly on the boards.

When someone has complaints about a group I have played in I usually say something like, "I'm only the tuba player, they don't pay me to think. They only want me to do what the conductor says or if he doesn't say anything to me, I'm supposed to play what's on the page. How'd you like the tuba part?"

If the band is a 'fun' group, say so and don't pretend otherwise. If the band is a 'raise the bar' group, then you cannot tolerate bad playing.

My suggestion for the OP? Start a quintet.
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tubainty
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by tubainty »

Isn't the whole point of rehearsing to fix mistakes? If no one is going to correct this individual's (or anyone else's) mistakes then why hold rehearsals? Is he really going to take it that personally if he is called out ?
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Dan Schultz
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by Dan Schultz »

Here's an example of having enough money to do all the bad music you want....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtf2Q4yyuJ0
Dan Schultz
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MileMarkerZero
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by MileMarkerZero »

Some good advice here.
Best way to deal with it would be to do sectionals in that section and have someone tactfully help out the offending player.
That has been mentioned, however, the problem is the same as every other community band in that unless you take time out of rehearsal to do a sectional (which we do on occasion), nobody will show up.
Maybe it's time for you to think about forming another group to 'take it to the next level'.
Well, that was the original mission of this band. It split off from another existing ensemble because people were tired of playing grade 3 music all the time.

The band is chartered to be a "raise the bar" group, and for the most part it is. We actually do have people that come in for a rehearsal or two, and then don't come back because they don't want to work that hard. We lost several long-term members when the band (as an ensemble) decided to re-focus our efforts on "raising the bar" a couple of years ago. They were more interested in the social/relaxation aspects of the band than they were on the artistic considerations. That's OK, and I'm glad that they had the grace to bow out in deference to the majority of the band that wanted more.
This may be a stupid question but... Why doesn't the conductor simply correct the mistakes he is making?
The conductor has done everything short of dressing this individual down in rehearsal. He can only give stylistic direction to "the trumpets" so many times. At some point "the trumpets" (putting it that way to avoid pointing a finger) have to take ownership that direction and act upon it.
Most people would think it unfair for an all-comers band to dismiss a long-time member because he's "not good enough". Is it an all-comers band or not?
Not really. The standing process is that anyone is welcome to come sit in on rehearsal for a period of time. The conductor consults with the rest of the section and the player to get impressions of ability and compatibility. Most of the time, the individual keeps the seat if they want it. I've only seen a couple of instances where someone didn't, and my understanding is that it was a mutual choice between the band (via the conductor) and the player. AFAIK, we haven't ever "booted" anyone. This tends to work well for us, because anyone that gets invited to a rehearsal has heard the caveat "we play some very difficult rep," so coming in they kinda know what to expect.
My suggestion for the OP? Start a quintet.
Ah, man...I'd love to. I tried that a couple of years ago, and unfortunately the 5 of us couldn't ever align our schedules on a consistent basis. I've been looking at trying it again, but I know I am even busier than I was then, as are a couple of other potential quintet colleagues. :(
SD

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k001k47
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by k001k47 »

I think the goal for these types of bands is spread the joy of playing music to any person willing to participate. It is not a professional environment, so I'd not approach the player as if it were. If many members of the band don't like the way he's playing, then they should approach him and tell him so amiably. True, it is implied that this is a community band that plays at a higher level, but these situations are bound to arise when membership is open.
I don't like the idea of kicking him out. It's so condescending.
There's nothing to lose and nothing to gain out of it, except for maybe a trumpet section that sounds a little bit better.
Isn't the whole point of rehearsing to fix mistakes? If no one is going to correct this individual's (or anyone else's) mistakes then why hold rehearsals? Is he really going to take it that personally if he is called out ?
Rehearsal time is for running through music and fixing the ensemble as a whole.
It's rehearsal time, not practice time. Taking the time to teach parts is a waste of everyone's time.
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by jeopardymaster »

Here's a thought - you could offer to "promote" him. Maybe make him assistant director and have him go out in the hall or performance space to listen with a "critical ear." Maybe let him conduct a march once in a while - so long as he can follow.
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Dan Schultz
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by Dan Schultz »

This discussion surfaces quite regularly on the Yahoo 'community music' forum. And... the subject always gets a wide variety of answers depending on exactly what the mission of the group really is. This is good reading for anyone who has a keen interest in community music.... http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/c-m/messages
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http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
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Rick Denney
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Re: How to deal with a *BAD* player

Post by Rick Denney »

Alex C wrote:If the band is a 'fun' group, say so and don't pretend otherwise. If the band is a 'raise the bar' group, then you cannot tolerate bad playing.
Alex, there's quite a lot of middle ground between these extremes, including all of the bands I've played in (as a member or as a sub) from obscure suburban community bands to the National Concert Band of America. Some required auditions, and many didn't, but none were completely free of bad playing. All, however, were interested in "raising the bar." But the difference is that their interest was in raising the bar for the musicians willing to commit to the group. So, rather than weeding out bad players, they focused on improving bad players. And they did that by the arts of persuasion, the power of good examples, and the demands of the music, as I have described before. The audition groups have been the most contentious in this regard because consistent audition standards are nearly impossible to sustain.

I worry about groups that focus only on the product going to the audience. If a group seems like a job, and if only pro-quality musicians are good enough to be in it, then how long will it be before they demand to get paid? Indeed, some amateur groups have the express intention of becoming professional groups, at least to some degree, and groups like that are not the ones I'm worried about. Their members are making an investment in future remuneration (vis a vis making an investment in their own enjoyment and satisfaction). Many groups, however, write their mission as if they are interested in providing outlets for community musicians to express themselves, and then plot against those in the group who aren't good enough to meet their standard (and everyone in the group has a different standard). Those groups often tear themselves apart.

But it is not a given that an all-comers group has to be a poor-quality group. Listening to the recordings made by the Austin Symphonic Band in the late 90's, as I have done, reveal that an all-comers group can be pretty darn good. Nobody will confuse them with the Dallas Wind Symphony, of course, but then DWS members expect to get paid.

In our group, we have agreed as a group (and as a board) that the objective of the group is musical, within the context of the pool of musicians in the community. We are not primarily a social group. There are people who have been in that group for a decade who still have to think before remembering the names of others who have been in that group just as long. But we can mostly remember the music we've played, and how we played it.

But we are still an all-comers group. The strategy consistent with our mission is therefore to put challenging music on the stand and allow self-selection. Occasionally, that isn't enough, and that's when private conversations happen. Even more occasionally (perhaps twice in the 11 years I've been in the group) it blows up and has to be handled officially. Because of the clarity of how we state our mission, however, we are even able to hire ringers effectively to make it possible for us to play literature that would be impossible otherwise. The ringers are told that their role is a supporting role, and they are not allowed to take solos or dictate how parts are distributed (exception being when they are covering a part not otherwise covered at all). They fill in so that those who have learned those solos (however imperfectly) don't blow their chops before they get to them. We have never had a problem with that, and the pros we've hired have been a joy to have in our group because of that clarity.

A lot of people have tried our group and moved on--either it wasn't good enough for them (in their perception) or they were too intimidated by our programming.

One aspect of the difficult programming is that we recognize our stage product will be imperfect. But since our mission is to satisfy ourselves as well as our audiences, and since our audiences are more forgiving of us than we are of ourselves, we are happier with worthwhile music and some imperfections compared with schlocky and boring "educational" music that might be more technically perfect. I insist, however, that a band will achieve its technical level no matter how much it tries to program down to the members--people will work hard to improve their ability to play wonderful music even if it is beyond their abilities. They won't bother with Symphony of Sitcoms and the like.

Perfect programming for a community group asks for about 105% or 110% of their abilities. The result is that we get better as time goes on, and it becomes even more satisfying. Isn't that raising the bar?

Rick "President, Loudoun Community Bands, Inc." Denney
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