Tuba Choice--Rite of Spring

[hbcrandy]

I have done this piece 4 times over the years and have done it with 2 CC tubas. Though, I could see it working well with an F or Eb on the first part.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

This is really a euphonium gig as the french tuba of the time was physically smaller than a modern euphonium. That tuba players don't know this is really sad. Also, MEISTERSINGER was for an ophicleide;-)

The piece in question was not written for French tubas in C...not even close. Any cursory inspection of the parts will reveal that. He does indicate "bass tubas" in contrast to the "tenor tubas" that the 7th and 8th horn double on near the middle of the work. Stravinsky certainly would have been aware of the larger tubas by 1913. At the time, he lived in Switzerland and composed the piece for the Ballets Russes...I fail to see the French influence.

But, even assuming for a moment that it was, what difference does that make? Do you find it "sad" that trombones don't play this piece on the very small bore instruments in use at the time? Is it "sad" that the opening bassoon solo is now played on an instrument with extra keys to make the register more pleasant to listen to and more stable for the player? Are we ill-served by listening to performances of this piece on modern woodwind instruments with nicely-in-tune scales, or should we settle for the weak instruments of the early 20th century with horrid intonation (I, for one, enjoy actually hearing the flutes and clarinets)? How about the string players? Is it sacrilege to play on modern steel round-wound strings that weren't offered until that last few decades?

Meistersinger...ophicleide? It says "Bass-Tuba" on the original manuscript in Wagner's hand (see here). Does that change your mind?

[MartyNeilan]

Are we ill-served by listening to performances of this piece on modern woodwind instruments with nicely-in-tune scales, or should we settle for the weak instruments of the early 20th century with horrid intonation (I, for one, enjoy actually hearing the flutes and clarinets)??

There's no sound in flutes!!

[eupher61]

Given the size of the orchestra, a good-projecting CC works well on both parts. The 1st isn't that high, and it needs OOMPH, esp at the end of the first part (the triplet figure above the staff). I tried it on F once, the conductor didn't like it at all, and it really didn't feel good to me at the time. Now, since I play F all but exclusively, it would certainly feel different, and it might work better as far as projection and balance.

[Rick Denney]

I gotta yell at all you guys again for coming down on James just for the fun of it. There are lots of pieces I would play for free. There's even a little engineering work I would do for free if the opportunity came my way. It is allowed for our work to also be our hobby in a slightly different context. And if professional musicians don't want to go the way of professional photographers (the best of whom never have trouble finding paid work), they must understand that competition from people willing to do it for free is legitimate competition deserving of respect.

We've heard authoritatively presented answers ranging from C tubas to C French tubas, with everything in between or not, including Bb contrabass tubas and euphoniums. (Note for Matt: Authoritatively presented does not equal correct.) I take it from that that the choice of instrument is up to the tuba player and subject to the whims of the maestro. So, James, do what you will and make it work.

And while I'm pissing everyone off, I'll add for Matt's sake: The plural of anecdote is data. The problem with anecdotes is that they are singular (or at least not plural enough to test their plurality).

Rick "only Klaus got it right" Denney

[Todd S. Malicoate]

I sincerely doubt you "pissed anyone off," Rick, but I also don't see that anyone came down on our friend James "for the fun of it," either (well, ok, perhaps one or two).

The idea of donating one's playing services for free is a nice one and speaks well of James, his character, and his devotion to the art of music. It's a good thing. What was odd was the idea that a top-tier orchestra like Philadelphia would enlist the help of student musicians (or other non-professionals that would donate their services) for free in order to satisfy the instrumentation requirements of a large-scale work. That simply isn't going to happen, and it was the suggestion that one could do such a thing that spurred the responses.

With ticket sales dwindling along with endowment funds and contributions, it's my contention that it will simply be more "efficient" for program directors to avoid the works which require so many additional players. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the way I see it coming down the 'pike.

So, to the original point...it's a great idea to gain experience playing for free with community groups and the like. I just wouldn't expect to find Le Sacre du Printemps in the folder. Study the excerpts and decide for yourself what the best tuba is for you.

[Matt G]

And while I'm pissing everyone off, I'll add for Matt's sake: The plural of anecdote is data. The problem with anecdotes is that they are singular (or at least not plural enough to test their plurality).

My little quip only tries to reinforce the idea that a singular event in someones life is not a good predictor for all future experiences. Just because a visiting lecturer comes by and sucks compared to your top student, it bears no relevance in reality.

I witnessed the same exact event: "Guest artist" comes by. Plays some 20th Century "music" that he has "composed". *Yawn*. Goes to do masterclass. Gets embarrassed by three different players. However, I let that bear no relevance on how other upcoming guest artists should be perceived. And I still think that 99% of the professionals are better than students when placed in context.

I can see the parallel with photographers versus musicians. There are some seriously skilled amateurs who have access to what is now "cheap" good equipment (FF dSLRs, $200 photo processing programs, excellent lenses under $2000) and can put out images that are more than good enough for most media. Sometimes these guys are more than happy to do a shoot, wave copyrights, and get a pittance fee just to get exposure. Sadly, they even lose the ability to use their own images in their own portfolio sometimes. But that is the price they pay to try to get closer to that "pro" level.

Sure, James means well. But I think the folks here are trying to let him know that his chances of getting to play RoS for free in a top tier orchestra for his educational purposes are practically nil. If it is for his education, he should expect to pay for it. James is now in a "pay to play" situation. Many "pay to play" groups can be very good. I have heard (bootleg) recordings of the Julliard orchestras. Wow! However, these students are still, in reality, paying to play. Even if they are on scholarship, they are not getting paid to live from performing alone. Many youth symphonies are fine groups. They are also pay to play, because they are educating players. Once you can prove your able to make it in the pay to play world, they reverse the order, and you move into play for pay world. Even in the amateur world of community bands, they are often pay to play, with dues being asked for. And they are still providing an educational experience for the players.

I'm sure RoS will get programmed a few times in the 2012-2013 series for a few orchestras in the US. However, I don't think anyone will perform this just because the players are willing to volunteer their time.

[ZNC Dandy]

Something tells me that the Miraphone 184 that l'elefant has for sale, would be perfect for both parts. Thats what I would choose, something that can put some stank in your sound when need be...

[eupher61]

Buy one, you get a free Veg O Matic, and a dehydrator, and a set of knives FREE

[jeopardymaster]

My 184 was what I used both times. But I didn't have a choice. I did have a choice which part to play one of those times - and went with the Second Part. The other time it was handed to me and I said, oh... all right.

[Amilcare]

This is idiocy. I logged in and then when i answered the idiot about the Rite of Spring part, it was lost.

[Matt G]

This is idiocy. I logged in and then when i answered the idiot about the Rite of Spring part, it was lost.

The irony.

[windshieldbug]

This is idiocy. I logged in and then when i answered the idiot about the Rite of Spring part, it was lost.

The Rite of Spring is lost!?

[eupher61]

Pot, kettle...

[MartyNeilan]

Revisited:

The college where I am adjunct at is performing Rite of Spring in their (usually very good) college/community orchestra next spring. As we don't currently have any tuba majors, I will be playing one of the tuba parts, most likely the second. I was thinking about giving the first part to a capable student with a 4 valve compensating euphonium. Symph Fantistique and a few other two tuba pieces have sometimes used euph on first, but has this ever been done much on Rite? (with evidence to back it up?)

[sloan]

And while I'm pissing everyone off, I'll add for Matt's sake: The plural of anecdote is data. The problem with anecdotes is that they are singular (or at least not plural enough to test their plurality).

Rick "only Klaus got it right" Denney

No, it's not. "Data" requires something more.

Oh, wait...you're an engineer.

Nevermind...

[MartyNeilan]

Revisited:

The college where I am adjunct at is performing Rite of Spring in their (usually very good) college/community orchestra next spring. As we don't currently have any tuba majors, I will be playing one of the tuba parts, most likely the second. I was thinking about giving the first part to a capable student with a 4 valve compensating euphonium. Symph Fantistique and a few other two tuba pieces have sometimes used euph on first, but has this ever been done much on Rite? (with evidence to back it up?)

Any college euphonium player worth his salt and with a fully chromatic horn should be good at least down to a pedal F. The question isn't really one of range, but rather timbre and style. So, what say ye to a euph on the first part? Major no-no, or having the right punch and growl for this piece?
I am looking for any empirical evidence, or even anecdotes, to back this up.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Revisited:

The college where I am adjunct at is performing Rite of Spring in their (usually very good) college/community orchestra next spring. As we don't currently have any tuba majors, I will be playing one of the tuba parts, most likely the second. I was thinking about giving the first part to a capable student with a 4 valve compensating euphonium. Symph Fantistique and a few other two tuba pieces have sometimes used euph on first, but has this ever been done much on Rite? (with evidence to back it up?)

Any college euphonium player worth his salt and with a fully chromatic horn should be good at least down to a pedal F. The question isn't really one of range, but rather timbre and style. So, what say ye to a euph on the first part? Major no-no, or having the right punch and growl for this piece?
I am looking for any empirical evidence, or even anecdotes, to back this up.

I vote no. The euphonium simply doesn't have the raw power that many sections of this piece really needs (particularly the energetic rhythmic sections where the tubas have secco downbeats).

It will work on euphonium, yes, but if you have an option I don't believe that euphonium is the best choice.

How lucky you are to have a chance to perform this work with a college/community orchestra. Most would shy away from such a challenge!

[Biggs]

This is idiocy. I logged in and then when i answered the idiot about the Rite of Spring part, it was lost.

The irony.

Where was I the first time this ran?

[eutubabone]

When I played this with Macon Symphony a few years ago, I believe Willie Clark and I were on the first part. I think he was playing the principal 1st part, I was playing assistant principal ( also up in the stratosphere) and George Mason was playing the second part. I don't remember what tuba Willie was playing, but at the time I was on a Miraphone 188 and George was playing a BBb on the bottom part. It seemed to sound good on the CD they recorded that night.