UK advice - bell detaching needed for Amati helicon

[bstevens]

Hi
I'm travelling a lot more now, and having my bell made detachable would be amazing on my helicon.

Can anyone advise anywhere in the UK that would be able to do it for less than £400? FHLambert have been recommended, but can you recommend anyone else? Mark "Mr Tuba" quoted hugely, so not sure where else to go. The instrument is only worth around £900, but it's getting a lot of use ...

Many thanks,
Bruce - brighton, UK

http://www.myspace.com/brucethetuba" target="_blank

[bstevens]

Hi
Thanks for the reply .. I'm guessing it's a long(ish) bell? See picture attached. I figure I could actually fit the helicon into a large circular drum-style case once cut. Just not sure how else to put it in the hold of an aeroplane without getting totally destroyed! It seems getting cases made cost the same as cutting the bell, and then you're also stuck with lugging this massive case around ...

Thanks,
Bruce

[imperialbari]

Please take a look at your helicon, and then please make a suggestion about where you would want it cut.

In my eyes there is no place to make such cut without compromising one part or another of the structure of this instrument.

If your helicon follows the usual Czech/German tradition, then your instrument is very lightly built especially compared with older American circlophoniums. The Central European helicons were designed for actual military marching over long distances. That is one reason they are light. My personal take is that the lightness also was a necessity for having sufficient bass chiff (percussiveness of the attack) in a tradition, which until very recent decades wasn’t known for making good bass trombones.

One place to cut your bell would be at the ferrule, but then you would need a new body-to-bell-stay. Would such one be cheap?

Another option would be a cut above the present bell stay. There the diameter already is pretty large. The collars would have to be conical, and they would have to be fairly heavy to stay round. And roundness is very important for an easy mounting or un-mounting. How would two heavy rings influence the sound of a bell acoustically designed to be light?

To my knowledge Cerveny rarely makes cases for their helicons. Rather they make dust covers in this style:

In+Czech+style+bag.jpg

Against my expectations my galleries have a photo of a case for a Cerveny helicon. Don’t know whether it is original:

In+the+case+view.jpg

Klaus

[SousaSaver]

The only sensible place to have the bell detach is the bell ferrule. This would require switching the collar with a bell socket. You could then use a different brace to go from the body directly to the bell socket.

Your cost would include parts plus labor. If you can use existing parts, meaning not having to get anything specially made for you. You should be able to have this done in your budget, but you also have to find someone willing to do this.

Good luck. Let us know what you figure out!

[imperialbari]

BRSousa tells the best solution. If the diameter at the joint is right, you may be lucky it fits with a standard sousaphone pair of collars.

My worst worry is about the stiffness of the whole structure, if the main stay shall sit below that pair of collars. Maybe one or two brass plates like those in the bows of Monette trumpets would work. Or changing the shoulder support to a false tube like in Conn Eb sousaphones.

Where are you in the UK? I may know somebody willing to do this.

Klaus

[Donn]

If I read him right, part of the problem is that whether it's hypothetically more space efficient or not, the 2 piece case may exist in some form, where the 1 piece case is not available and therefore doesn't count as an option.

Not that he's necessarily right - I wouldn't bet that the body will fit in a drum case, nor that a round case of that dimension wouldn't be just as unwieldy.

So that case in Klaus' picture - is it available at all? I'd seriously look into that. It does look pretty compact to me. Maybe suspiciously compact, since of course it will need a lot of protection from the brutalities of air travel, but I think one could work with it. For example (I have thought about this a lot, since I had to make up a cardboard container for one of these this summer), cut a long length of cardboard, across the grain, to roll up to match the inside of the loop, and trim it so it supports the middle of the closed lid. You should be able to stand on cardboard rolled up that way, so you can stand on the lid. Partly deflated ball in the bell, bubble wrap all around, I don't know. It's tight, but the trade-off is that it looks manageable.

[bstevens]

Where are you in the UK? I may know somebody willing to do this.

Hi Klaus - thanks for the advice thus far (to everyone). The cases are a nightmare all round. Gig bags will be expensive regardless, that hard case you showed (which I believe someone in Austria can supply, but again...not exactly flight case so I'd have to someone make it stronger, and probably pay close to £400 anyway for it) ...

Anyway, I'm in Brighton in the UK, but would appreciate any suggestions for people to get quotes from. It's a tricky decision - one flight to Japan or the USA will make it worth my while cutting, but then most gigs get an extra seat on the plane .. still, it's a big pain and I do think cutting the bell would create a much more portable compact instrument for porting. The instrument is only worth £900 though so it's a bit ridiculous having to pay so much more for a case or amendments ...



Plan C will be to just make a cardboard transporter (or mountain bike bag) with expandable foam or something...but then god help me on the NY subway with it ...

Bruce "Why didn't I Play the trumpet" Stevens

[imperialbari]

My postings on this thread may have been perceived like they are contradicting themselves. Basically I don’t trust the structure being solid enough to survive making the bell detachable. But if the OP really wants the attempt done, then I have made my best suggestions.

For those relatively new to TubeNet, it might be useful to repeat the essence a feuilleton from some years ago:

A US tubist/repairman wants a very playable and easily transportable tuba for his playing jobs within the traditional jazz scene.

He combines the body of a York Eb sousaphone and the bell of a York tuba into an Eb helicon with a detachable bell. He uses it as intended, but his searches for a case holding body as well as bell do not succeed. He builds another helicon, but this time with a non-detachable bell and sells the helicon with the detachable bell.

His advice on this thread is consistent with his experiences.

I have looked through my source material for the photo of the case shown in an earlier posting. There are no indications whether that case is original or by a third party supplier.

If the intention is about a case like the fibre drum cases, which I basically consider made of high end cardboard, then it should be possible to make one holding the instrument as is. There has been a suggestion how to keep the bottom and lid from collapsing. The padding could more or less be a modified sleeping bag. It also would be possible to make a real flight case, but that likely would be more costly than the indicated value of the instrument.

Klaus

PS: Just saw your last posting. My contact is in Lancashire. He is sort of a small scale UK equivalent of Harvey Hartman without Harvey’s heavier machinery.

PPS: Gideon Juckes posted here a very few times under the screen name SetsubunBeanUnit. Last I was in contact with him (2008) he divided his time between the UK and Japan. He performed and travelled with an un-cut helicon somewhat like yours.

[Wyvern]

You could get a quote from Phil Parker in London, but if the helicon is only worth £900, then I suspect it is going cost too much from any repair man in the UK. If you travel a lot, maybe you can get done more cheaply overseas?

However otherwise, would it not be worth considering getting something else - a small tuba, or sousaphone which is more transportable to play on tour?

[imperialbari]

Jonathan, I haven’t made show performances on tuba, at least not in a venue demanding amplification. Without disclosing my source, it is my understanding that the old-style German/Czech helicons have benefits over tubas as well as over sousaphones.

They are more portable than tubas. They are lighter than most sousaphones. And they give freedom for dancing moves, while it still is possible to control a high degree of directionality towards microphones on stands.

There are other approaches. bloke made that funky sousaphone even if he already had the quite compact Buescher based CC helicon. He incorporated two heavy elements into his design. The 4 piston valve block from a Conn 40K and the rig holding the bass drum dynamic microphone. The compensating lighter element then is the plastic/fiber body. Still I understand the attractiveness of the light European helicons.

Even if Cerveny still should make cases for their helicon, then their designs have varied over the years, so a current case may not necessarily fit this present helicon. As the instrument has a higher value as a money maker than its trade value I wouldn’t mess with it. If it is worth bringing to other continents, then it is worth a well designed flight case. I cannot do the woodwork myself any longer, but I am pretty sure a certain Amarillo helicon player could make an Armadillo case if he wanted to. And lots of other TubeNetters have the same skills.

Klaus

[Donn]

If the helicon weren't in F, I would sure recommend a different traveling tuba. This is a fine instrument, and for a helicon it's relatively compact, but in my opinion helicons weren't meant to fly.

But an extra tuba in F is bound to be rather spendy, isn't it? Not the kind of thing that shows up often at the flea market?

[Paul Tkachenko]

Bruce - you didn't even come and look at mine yet (done at FH Lamberts)!

I should probably post some pics up here to share with you all.

I got the idea to remove the bell from Mark Rubin ...