Thayer valve as 5th valve on tubas?

[averagejoe]

Has anybody thought about using a Thayer valve as the fifth valve on a tuba? I am pretty sure that no Thayer valves are made in a big enough bore size but the idea intrigues me. Does anybody think that this is a good idea? I am not someone who thinks that valve type makes a huge difference, but in rotor vs thayer 'bones I have tended to think that the ones with Thayer valves feel more "open." This could have been the power of suggestion, of course.

[SousaSaver]

I don't know.

Thinking about this in a practical manner, rotors are probably used because they have been used for years without any problem.

I am sure that you could if you wanted to, you just have to find someone to make you one in the proper bore size...

[modelerdc]

I would advise against the use of thayer valves on the tuba. The best thayer valves leak air at such a rate that if they were any other kind of valve you would send it out to be rebuilt. They also have a tendency to be slow in action. For a valve that's almost as free blowing, use a Hagmann. Slightly more blowing resitance, but becuase it doesn't leak air and is fast, the response will be better, and that will make it work better in real world music. I've sold my trombone thayers and replaced them with hagmanns and truebores.

Rotary valves are obsolete, but may be used

[modelerdc]

It's difficult to find two tubas that are the same except that each one uses a different type of valve. Perhaps some of the Miraphone 191 vs. 1291 designs can can show the difference between rotary and piston performance. Other types of valves are rarely used in tubas, and it would be very expensive to have a tuba modified just to try a new type of valve out.

Fortunately, experiments with many different valves types has already been done, but on trombones. With the modular trombones now made it's easy to keep the rest of the horn the same and swap out the valve section in a couple of minutes. On my Shires tenor and bass trombones I've owned and played the Shires rotary, Greenhoe rotary, Shires thayer, Shires truebore, and the Hagmann valve.

All of these valves have their good and bad points. Choice may depend on what's most important to you.

I found the Shires rotary and the Greenhoe improved rotary to play similarly, not different enough to justify the cost of changing a regular rotary instrument over to Greenhoes. I agree with Bloke above that the differences between regular rotaries and the improved ones is somewhat exaggerated. The Greenhoe was a little more open. The rotaries, as expected had the most resistance when playing and a tight focus to the sound, and the most change in tone from on or off the valve.

The Thayer was the most free blowing. But this comes at a price, response is slower on the thayer, probably because they all leak more air than any other valve design. It's the best valve for just sitting on a low note and seeing how loud you can play it. But because of the slower response it's actually more work to play in real world music. I was torn between the fast response of the rotary and the open blow of the thayer until I came up with a set of truebores and Hagmanns.

The truebores and the Hagmanns are similar in design. The truebore is built with a straight through pipe on the open side (but has some displacement like pistons on the other pipes to accommodate this). The Hagmann is not straight through, but has perfectly round tubing on all the pipes. Both are more free blowing than any rotary I've ever played. Not quite as open as the thayer, but the better response more than makes up for this. I've sold my thayers and now play hagmanns and turebores.

How does this affect tubas? Both the hagmanns and truebores allow for the possibility of building the valve with flared tubing inside of the valve. Put another way it's possible to incorporate the expansion of the bugle into the valve itself. Also the true bore valve, because it's straight through, means that additional valves can be added to an instrument without increasing the resistance of the instrument (in open position of course!) A 5th valve could be added onto a removable slide (or anywhere for that matte), and would not degrade the response. A 5-6-7 or 8 valve F tuba made with truebores need not have any more resistance than one with fewer valves, and without compromising the shape of the open bugle.

While their is more to horn design that just the valve (hence Bloke's comment that some resistance can help-the need for a balanced design, also see Rick Denny's site), I believe that the piston is generally superior to the rotary. It's been interesting to see the German rotaries replaced by York inspired American style piston instruments over the last 20 years. And the Miraphone 186 CC's that were a professional standard when I was in college, are gradually becoming a step up instrument for students who can't afford one of the newer BATs just yet. Hence my saying "rotary valves are obselete but may be used"

[Dan Schultz]

From a repairmans point of view.... I am not a big fan of Thayer valves. They have far too much surface area and are therefore quite prone to sluggishness. Also... any damage to them pretty much requires that they be sent back to Thayer for repairs. Shires builds trombones with Thayer valves but they don't service them.

I don't think a Thayer valve will hold up to constant use. They are probably OK for trombones where they are used only as 'short-cuts' but for applications where they are in use all of the time, I think there would be trouble quite quickly.

Go with conventional rotors. They are less costly and more reliable.

[tbn.al]

I LOVE MY HAGMANS

I've had them 10 years now with absolutely no problem and no maintenance except for monthly cleaning and oiling. They are quiet, quick and don't leak. They are approimately 95% as free blowing as Thayers with none of the problems. I am not aware of any made in anything larger than cimbasso bore sizes.

[SousaSaver]

Natural selection works in the musical instrument world too. I think that if a design has fell by the wayside, it may have been for a good reason.

Example, Boehm system vs. Albert system in Clarinets. Or the development of the perinet valve system (modern) vs. berliner valves or vienna valve systems.

There is still a place in the world for Albert system Clarinets and period Vienna valve instruments, but one must ask why they are no longer in mainstream use today.

Just my opinion...and I have just exhausted my knowledge of Clarinets...

[Timswisstuba]

I've spoken to Rene Hagmann about putting one of his valves on a tuba but the largest size is 16mm. (0.629 inch) which is small for a tuba.

I have used Rotax valves with excellent results.

[bbocaner]

TVI (Thayer's company at the time) advertisements in the ITA journal in the mid-1990s had a little blurb that said "coming soon! a 4-valve Thayer euphonium! But it never materialized. They require too much maintenance. When I had trombones with Thayers on them I was constantly taking them apart to oil them and keep them working right. Pretty much every other type of valve is less of a hassle!

[tclements]

This is a GREAT idea, but I think not only would the Thayers be HUGE, but the maintainence on them would be a nightmare! I would be very interested in a valve like the Shires Tru-bore®, or the Minick valve that Conn uses on the CL2000.

[J.c. Sherman]

The Thayer Euphonium DID materialize... I tried on at the 1993 ITF here in Cleveland. It played well, but it was a nghtmare of twists and turns, cosmetically, and ergonomics were very 19th century. Putting one into production would be a job for an instrument maker - Thayer only really built valve sections, not whole horns.

A Thayer would not be possible on a tuba, as the largest bore size manufactured is .590 (Bass trombone rotors).

Bloke, I agree that the Bach K valve was an excelelnt design. The legato of a piston valve, the ports of an open horn, and the lever action of a rotor made it wonderful. I had a K valve trombone for a while and miss that valve somethin' fierce!

However, I do think one of the other large rotor valves was very good, the Yamaha valve found on the YSL-682B. A very nice trombone, with a valve that beat the crap out of the Conn CL rotor (an abomination, IMHO). Still hoping to find one of those with money in my pocket at the same time!

J.c.S. (who's had so much trouble with CL valves he's ready to turn them away at the door!)

[UDELBR]

A Thayer would not be possible on a tuba, as the largest bore size manufactured is .590 (Bass trombone rotors).

Just cuz they haven't made 'em doesn't mean they can't make 'em.

I had correspondence with Orla Ed Thayer in the early '90s about this. He said the euphonium worked well, and that he was excited about the prospect of the Thayers being made for tubas.

[averagejoe]

I had no idea that Thayer valves had reliability and longevity issues. That does seem to rule it out for tuba use. Maybe there are other options though. I actually don't mind conventional rotors, but I just like the idea of having options. Competition breeds quality (at least in an ideal world). Also, I saw a really interesting valve (again on a trombone) that the guy who sat next to me in my church orchestra had. The best way that I can describe it is that it was a piston valve rotated within the casing rather than move up and down. I didn't get to try it, but it was sure an interesting idea. It was on a Yamaha, which he said that he bought it in Japan while visiting his wife's relatives.

[jonesbrass]

I have used Rotax valves with excellent results.

Ditto. Free blowing, easy maintenance.

[jonesbrass]

I had no idea that Thayer valves had reliability and longevity issues.

I can't speak to longevity, but my wife has a Thayer on her Shires tenor, and I can tell you that maintenance is a bit of a bear. She is fanatical about keeping her instruments clean, but the Thayer takes regular rinsing and lubing in order to keep it moving quickly. Never had that issue with a regular rotor (like on my Shires bass) or Rotax rotors.

[tubatom91]

use a piston valve...eh?

[MileMarkerZero]

a rotor that is 3x the bore size (rather than the traditional "less than 2x") is going to be heavy and s-l-o-w.

How feasible would it be to manufacture some sort of reduction system to gain a mechanical advantage and minimalize the "slowness" and weight of the valve?

[cjk]

Aw c'mon, y'all just think Thayer valves *look* cool.




I am more interested in manufacturers tuning up their open bugles than bothering with new types of valves.

[J.c. Sherman]

A Thayer would not be possible on a tuba, as the largest bore size manufactured is .590 (Bass trombone rotors).

Just cuz they haven't made 'em doesn't mean they can't make 'em.

I had correspondence with Orla Ed Thayer in the early '90s about this. He said the euphonium worked well, and that he was excited about the prospect of the Thayers being made for tubas.

Actually, having talked to Barbara Thayer, his surviving wife, they still can't. Though, as they have been, they are exploring that. But they don't have the tooling for it right now. A larger bore valve would require nearly all the parts be re-tooled from housing to valve to retaining ring to...

[UDELBR]

But they don't have the tooling for it right now.

That's why they haven't been made. But you said they'd "not be possible" on a tuba. Different.