Kanstul 66-S, 4P+1R, Eb York Monster.

[Walter Webb]

Impression #1:
Today, it arrived safe n' sound by UPS. The SKB case helped, along with the foam form-fitted bagged stuffers in the bell and at the bows and bell. Nothing like shipping your tuba in a Big *** Case of ABS plastic, with 4 buckles. Lee Stofer is a stand up guy, like Dudley Doo-Right of the Royal Mounties. He insists upon customer satisfaction, and will do whatever it takes to achieve it.

To me, this tuba is humongous, although it is an Eb. It has the old York Monster proportions. I decided upon Eb, and will spend the rest of my days using that fingering system. Z. Kanstul said that the Eb and BBb share the same stack and bell, with different loops and bows. It is designed with five 6mm allen bolts to remove the side valve assembly from the bugle. Looks like it would take about one minute, not that I would want to. Giving a first look-around, I noticed an odd circle of discoloration around the bell about 8 inches down from the rim. I thought it was an imperfection, but here's the deal: the upper bell and throat is a single-piece spin-casting, and the stack preceding it was formed from a flat piece of brass. The ring of a different color is where the two were brazed, and lacquer does not cover it up. This is not visible unless you look closely, and silver plating would render it completely invisible. Now that I know what it is, I don't care one iota. The stack and bell are of a different rosy color than the rest of the tuba, which Kanstul markets as the long-lost magic JW York alloy that they have revived thru scientific analysis in league with two consulting tubists and the Copper Development Association. Is that good ol' American Snake Oil? I don't know. Good advertising makes me want to swallow the bait, hook, like, and sinker. It certainly is pretty to look at that darker copper stack and bell. That 19 inch bell looks so big... it's a thing of beauty.

I count 9 tuneable slides, with the bottom four fitted with spit valves. You spread your legs a bit, and reach thru with the left hand to commit drainage. Nobody will accuse you of wetting your pants if you walk around and mingle during intermission. The worst fit-and-finish problem I can find is two small beads of lacquer spray that teardropped on the bottom side of two loops.

How does it play, you might ask? Awesome. This thing has potential that I cannot fathom. At age 59, as a tuba beginner just making level one, I will grow into it's capabilities for years. I am at least an intermediate saxophone player, and a long-time musician. I turned to tuba after reaching my limit as a baritone sax player, trying to play bass, with that thing hanging on my neck by a strap. If life had turned another way, and if you could touch a decent bass sax for less that 10 grand, I would have one and be riffing like Adrian Rollini, but tuba has siezed me, and I can't stop!

On Sunday, our most advanced local player is coming to try it, and I will report his observations. He will be able to compare it with his Meinl-Weston 2141. Other Northern California tubists are welcome to PM me and come by Nevada City for a toot. I'll put you up. More to follow.
Walter

[LCH3]

Walter, it's great that with you and Fulerzoo both types of Kanstul Eb tubas being reviewed.

As I asked with the 66T, I am interested in hearing from you what mouthpiece you are using and how your Eb responds below A (2-4) to at least low D (2).

Thanks.....LH

[Steve Inman]

Walter, it's great that with you and Fulerzoo both types of Kanstul Eb tubas being reviewed.

As I asked with the 66T, I am interested in hearing from you what mouthpiece you are using and how your Eb responds below A (2-4) to at least low D (2).

Thanks.....LH

Also very interested to hear more about this model! Until this model's introduction, I was not aware of any other options to match (?) the size/sound of the Fletcher model, but that is non-compensating (5V). I suppose the 2141 is the closest presently available.

Cheers,

[GC]

@Steve: Miraphone, Willson, Hirsbrunner (until recently), B&S, Jinbao (under different stencils), Yamaha, and others make Besson 981 copies or near-copies with 18-19" bells and 3+1 compensating systems. Is there something special about a Fletcher model that's different?

[Steve Inman]

@Steve: Miraphone, Willson, Hirsbrunner (until recently), B&S, Jinbao (under different stencils), Yamaha, and others make Besson 981 copies or near-copies with 18-19" bells and 3+1 compensating systems. Is there something special about a Fletcher model that's different?

... but that is non-compensating (5V)

I've been interested in something the approximate size of the Fletcher model (or any other similar model), but that is NON-COMP ....

Finally one is available. If I ever need to revert to a one-tuba solution, I would be interested in learning more about this particular horn.

Cheers,

[Wyvern]

Out of interest, how similar is this in tone to a Besson 981? I wonder if the Kanstul might be good substitute for playing Eb bass in brass band for those who do not like top valves.

[Walter Webb]

Impression #2: Today our most advanced local player came over with his MW 2141, which is very similar in configuration, with the 4p + 1r and York-like design. I believe both have the half step lower 5th valve. The MW looks much larger in bore size thru the valves, but smaller or less dramatic in the stack/bell flare. His comments after playing the 66-S a while: "More back pressure, or resistance to push against. Darker tone, warmer, more low overtones, maybe due to the rose brass stack and bell. Has a remarkably even sound and playability thru the registers. No surprises or obvious problem notes. D below the staff a bit flat." His MW has a much brighter sound, which seems to be it's character (in comparison) regardless of which mouthpiece. The Kanstul tone is noticeably darker, richer, or fatter. Various mpcs were tried: the Kanstul Eb-F that came with it (very well balanced with the horn), a Melton 150-4 (seems about the same as the Kanstul), a Schilke-Helleburg (bigger low notes), a Wick 3S-L (narrow bore, soloist, OMG, I can play a 4th space G!), and a no-name mpc marked 25 (slightly shallower cup than the S-H).

More differences between the 66-S and 2141: the 66-S feels a lot heavier, and it's shorter. The 2131 seems several inches taller, so much that I had to put it as low as possible in my lap and sit up really straight to align with the mpc.

My friend had an idiosyncratic experience with the Kanstul, in that his chops and breath support put him into the flat zone. The electronic tuner showed him to be universally flat, even with all slides pushed in. He said that he once had to have some tubing shortened on a CC because he just comes out flatter than most players. I find the 66-S to be in the adjustable zone where the tuner needle wavers around zero on average, with some notes sharper or flatter, depending on my fatigue/freshness. They all seem to be in the ballpark. I don't understand how two players can have such a different intonation result. I think I move a lot more air, under more pressure, than he does.

LCH3 asked how it responds below A (2-4) down to the D below. My friend played down the scale from there and each note was strong, until it just sounded like rattling in the basement. I can't play much below F 4th line below the staff, so my own impressions may not be useful.

I hope my observations are useful to somebody, given that I am just out of Rubank book 1. This horn seems to have a built up Big Block 454 under the hood, and all I can do is putter down to the grocery store.

In a week or so, I'll post pictures and have more to say. Questions?

[J.c. Sherman]

Has there never been a Monster compensating Eb? I'd cut off anatomical parts for such an animal.

J.c.S.

[tclements]

If it plays 1/2 as well as the one Ferguson let me play, you bought a GREAT instrument. Congrats!!!

[Tundratubast]

How would it compare or does it compare at all to the Besson 983, a 4v front action, compensating EEb. I recall it was rated as a 4/4 EEb, but it has a 19' Bell and is very capable in all ranges. And seemed to be a "serves all needs" type of tuba. Just curious, because I to, am considering reacquiring an EEb and the Kanstul is a compelling choice as well as another Besson, being made by Mienl. I played a 983 for a few years and it was quite the instrument.

[Steve Inman]

How would it compare or does it compare at all to the Besson 983, a 4v front action, compensating EEb. I recall it was rated as a 4/4 EEb, but it has a 19' Bell and is very capable in all ranges. And seemed to be a "serves all needs" type of tuba. Just curious, because I to, am considering reacquiring an EEb and the Kanstul is a compelling choice as well as another Besson, being made by Mienl. I played a 983 for a few years and it was quite the instrument.

Besson 983 bell is closer to 17 inches -- or at least mine was. (Interestingly, the Besson web site claims the 983 now has a 19" bell -- yet the bell flair in the photo looks significantly more modest than the (known) 19" bell on the 981/2 horns. Did they grow the bell of the 983, or is it still about 17 inches?)

This Kanstul looks .... impressively larger ....

I never liked my 983 below the low BBb due to the resistance through the compensating tubing. I never liked the 981/2 horns I tried, for the same reason. The non-comp design of the Kanstul is encouraging, but I wonder about the bore size (a wee bit smaller). With respect to the bell size, the Kanstul is a match for the 981/2 horn. Not sure about the size of the branches -- the Kanstul may be bigger. (?)

Cheers,

[Tundratubast]

My 983 was one of the last out of the old Besson structure, and I do remember it having 19" bell with a larger throat than the 981/982's. It didn't have that pancaked bell look to it, the skinny stem, narrow throat and large flair. It actually was an attractive and balanced appearing bell and instrument. I'll check some my old 983 For Sale ads to find out how my senior moments are lining up.

[J.c. Sherman]

The 983 plays and is proportioned nearly identically to the Besson Imperials of yore. The configuration is different, but the profile is the same. BUT, the bell flare is a tiny bit bigger, and the lack of a receiver brace is... different. The front valves certainly make it more socially acceptable. All the Bessons are basically the same size, save that the Sovereigns have a narrower bell throat and a wider flare (more American).

None of which, while I would say they are "4/4" Ebs, are monsters.

[Steve Inman]

Now **I** am curious also. I'm 99.9% certain my 983 bell was 17 or 17.25 inches in diameter. This was probably 15 years ago? Can anyone confirm? If so, then it was 2 inches less than the 981/2 horns are. I wonder if they REALLY are 19 inch bells today?

Curious,

[daveinem]

Played a four year old 983 recently. Same sized bell as my 2141.

[Chadtuba]

Now **I** am curious also. I'm 99.9% certain my 983 bell was 17 or 17.25 inches in diameter. This was probably 15 years ago? Can anyone confirm? If so, then it was 2 inches less than the 981/2 horns are. I wonder if they REALLY are 19 inch bells today?

Curious,

Not sure how old my 983 is, but I'll go down to the art class and get a tape measure later and check the bell size on it during my prep hour.

[Brown Mule]

Is any company "now" making the 983? If so who are the US dealers?

[Tundratubast]

Okay, I checked with the current owner of my 983, and my senior moments has past. I was wrong, Jim measured it at 17", it still is a great looking horn. I was talking with Roger Lewis the other day and he indicated that the Besson 983's (tubas) are being built by Meinl for Buffet-Crampton.(EDITED for Spelling) He also indicated their as been a few changes, the lead pipe lifted of the bell, they have pic's on their site. It seems to me the second valve slide has also been moved. BUT, it could just be the angle of the photo. I don't trust these senior moments one bit anymore.

I'm still curious as to the 983 vs. the Kanstul 66-S EEb front action. I guess it boils down to the 4v compensating system to the 5v non-comp system. I would like to hear the comments regarding the difference in the sound quality of the "Kanstul-York" as a lacquered, vs. silver plate?

[Steve Inman]

I received a PM also, confirming this. Plus, a comparison of the bell flair of the 983 vs 981 at the Besson web site shows a different profile. If I squint just right, and tell myself I'm looking at a 17" vs. a 19" bell, my brain says "okay".

This is also what I remember my old 983 having. What is ODD, however, is that in spite of this, the Besson web site lists the 983 as 19". I'm betting a malted beverage that this information is wrong on their web site (going out on a limb here) -- so I sent them an email asking for clarification.

Of course, since none of you lives around Kokomo, then if I lose my malt-beverage wager, I'll drink it for you -- whoever finds out that they really HAVE changed the bell of this horn (something I somehow doubt).

I think I also heard the horns were being manufactured by someone else, but forgot who. Since they now seem to be of German origin, I will close with the appropriate valediction ....


Mit freundlichen Grüßen ,

[Wyvern]

in spite of this, the Besson web site lists the 983 as 19".

For years the Besson website stated that the 981 had lowered leadpipe, after they raised it to same position as the 982. I would not believe the statement on the Besson website unless a 19" bell 983 is found.