6/4 tuba topic: flat 3rd partial...large upper bow

[SousaSaver]

Seems plausible.

It would be neat to find as many Tubas with a fatter top bow and test this out. Also test them against similar sized Tubas with a thinner top bow.

What is the degree of pitch variance caused by player and mouthpiece?

[kingconn]

pour some water in the horn and turn the horn until the spot you think is too large is on the bottom. this will make for some uncomfortable playing positions but will give you an idea of where to look to find trouble spots.
mike

[k001k47]

Maybe that heated blanket you were looking for earlier could help speed up the warming process.

[iiipopes]

Of course, this begs the question: if it is the large upper bow being too large, what is the fix? Take it off, trim the seam to make it marginally smaller, rebraze it, and reinstall it?

[tubaguy9]

...is this just another "tight-leather-belt-around-the-bell" sort of observation?

Maybe tie a belt around that upper bow!

[arpthark]

I know a repairman who was experimenting with installing shims inside the bows of 6/4 tubas (Holtons and Conns) to make the inner dimensions of the bow smaller, in order to bring up the flat 3rd and 5th partials.

[NDSPTuba]

I haven't thought much about it before, but I have noticed that sometimes I have to work at putting my G in tune and other times I don't even have to think about it. I'll have to pay attention and see it that phenomenon follows your observation. I'm thinking it probably does, because it is usually when i first start playing when I notice the intonation issues.

[sloan]

If only you had a 6/4 tuba that needed to have it's top bow replaced...perhaps you could experiment.

Or, a soon-to-be-scrap top bow sealed with packing tape. One might apply a ball-peen hammer judiciously to decrease the bore until that pesky 3rd partial perked up.

Once you know just the right size dent, you could travel the world improving intonation with your hammer.

[iiipopes]

Once you know just the right size dent, you could travel the world improving intonation with your hammer.

No joke: The Besson Comp I used to own had perfect 5th partial intonation. It was also a tad stuffy. I took it to my tech for new corks, check for leaks, etc. He noticed a bad dent in the knuckle between the 1st and 2nd valve. He fixed it. The tuba blew more freely, but the 5th partial pitch sagged. I took a ball peen hammer, and ever so gently tapped the knuckle to reintroduce the dent, but not to the degree it was obstructing the port before. My pitch came back, with very little stuffiness. I sold the tuba cheap to a friend of mine so I know where it is if I ever desire to borrow it back!

[tbn.al]

Not just tubas and not just top bows. I once had an old 88H with a spring loaded 1st position, ostensibly to affect the dreaded 5th partial D. I found myself over time usuing it as much for the 3rd partial F as the D. Agreed, it is not as bad as the 6/4 tuba issue, 'cause when you are playing a giant tuning slide, who cares. I have had other trombones with flat 3rd partials, but it's never been too much of a problem to lip the F up though on those without a springy first position. Conical vs cylindrical?

[Bob Kolada]

Not just tubas and not just top bows. I once had an old 88H with a spring loaded 1st position, ostensibly to affect the dreaded 5th partial D. I found myself over time usuing it as much for the 3rd partial F as the D. Agreed, it is not as bad as the 6/4 tuba issue, 'cause when you are playing a giant tuning slide, who cares. I have had other trombones with flat 3rd partials, but it's never been too much of a problem to lip the F up though on those without a springy first position. Conical vs cylindrical?

My first F contra had a -stupid- flat 3rd partial, to the point where I played that C with the valve and had to bring the other 3rd partial notes in about 2-3" each. That's one of the reasons I didn't keep it.
All of my other trombones are fine (slightly sharp at worst) on that note as well as the D most trombonists are always whining about. Actually, every other horn I've played for a while was also fine on that 3rd partial except for a few Miraphones; they didn't seem sharp exactly but 13 locked in much better. One in particular I played that F, the C below, and low F 13. C was easier to slur to surrounding notes and low F seemed to pop better. I only used the 4th valve for B, E, low Eb (124 and relax or lip up, 1st slide was very very slow), and D.

[jeopardymaster]

Interesting. But I really hadn't noticed the bottom line g to be consistently flat on ANY horns other than the Alex 163 - and even that is rather inconsistent. Maybe it's a lack of experience on my part, I dunno. It's actually just a smidgen SHARP on my Neptune, though marginally troublesome to me only in Eb Major.

[Steve Marcus]

Isn't the 5th partial (D middle of staff for BBb horns, E for CC tubas) more typically devilish than the 3rd partial?

Or perhaps, have you resolved that there's no way around on-the-fly slide adjustment on the 5th partial whereas a "permanent" fix might be possible on the 3rd partial by reconfiguring the proportion of the upper bow?

[cjk]

Isn't the 5th partial (D middle of staff for BBb horns, E for CC tubas) more typically devilish than the 3rd partial?

Or perhaps, have you resolved that there's no way around on-the-fly slide adjustment on the 5th partial whereas a "permanent" fix might be possible on the 3rd partial by reconfiguring the proportion of the upper bow?

Most tuba players seem to just accept a nasty flat 5th partial. You'll hear some folks say things like "the fifth partial is always flat" when in fact, it is not *always* flat. It is *often* flat. Most folks will just play it 1+2. If they don't move a slide, that 1+2 is often just as sharp as the open one is flat. 25+ cents sharp is not better than 25+ flat.

The 5th partial should be around 13 to 14 cents flat, that's usable in my book.

On my 2165, the open E is quite close, just a tiny bit flat. The Eb is perfect. The D is actually sharp and needs a pull.

The open E has been perfect on both of the Rudolf Meinl CC tubas I have owned (a RM45 and a 4345 piston).

[Frank Ortega]

How does one explain the Martin Mammoth?

They have fat top bows and darned near perfect intonation?

A note about the Mammoth, many of them need new valve stems to get proper valve alignment. Also, they have a slightly smaller valve bore. Somewhere in the range of .730, I think.

Frank

[sloan]

1+2 is often just as sharp as the open one is flat. 25+ cents sharp is not better than 25+ flat.

trill!

[jeopardymaster]

Most 6/4 size tubas don't seem to feature the "flat fifth partial" syndrome. Most 6/4-size tubas seem to offer:

- an in-tune fifth partial
- a flat third partial
- a sharp sixth partial (involving one, some, or all of the sixth partial pitches)
- other misc. quirks

That sharp 6th partial can be a lot more troubling, in my experience, especially if it bleeds down through the f# thru eb. Coupled with a flat 5th partial it turns an otherwise nice horn into an expensive fish kettle.

[jeopardymaster]

Two come to mind - both were MW CCs. Wretched. Simply wretched. One had actually been bought by someone - I tried to be diplomatic.

[tubatom91]

I just got a 1964 Holton 345 BBb and it does have a flat third partial but is in tune using 4th valve. C3 right above it is also about 20cents flat, those are the only real wild notes on the horn. I'm thinking of cutting the #1 slide a bit and adding one of those spring do-hickeys to keep it far enough out for every other note with 1st valve. I was wondering if that C being flat (as flat as the F under) is a common problem?

[Bob Kolada]

I just got a 1964 Holton 345 BBb and it does have a flat third partial but is in tune using 4th valve. C3 right above it is also about 20cents flat, those are the only real wild notes on the horn. I'm thinking of cutting the #1 slide a bit and adding one of those spring do-hickeys to keep it far enough out for every other note with 1st valve.

Since both of your bad notes are flat, why not install a main slide kicker?