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[TheHatTuba]

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[TheHatTuba]

Anyone else try this?

[Bill Troiano]

I'm pretty sure I posted about this a while ago with pictures. I did remove the 5th valve on my 52J (it just unbolts), used surgical tubing, bought at Home Depot, in place of the 5th valve and turned it into a 4 valve tuba. Overall,it played much better - better response. I ended up missing the 5th valve after a while and reinstalling it. Then, I sold the tuba.

[MileMarkerZero]

The rotor on my 52J (and just about all the 5xj's ive played on) is pretty stuffy. I've heard of replacing the stock rotor with a bigger one, like the Meinl Westons. In material cost alone, how much do you think this would cost (Meinl Weston rotor + assembly)?

One thing you can try is changing out the bumpers. The stock Conn bumpers are of very low quality and don't hold alignment well at all, and the alignment markings on the casing and bearing plate aren't 100% accurate, either. Fortunately, checking the alignment of a 5x-J rotor is easy. Just remove the valve and look into the short tubing and line it up. If your little finger is small enough, you can reach in there and feel if the valve is correct. If you have sausage fingers like me, you need a screwdriver wrapped in a paper towel. I used pieces cut with an X-Acto knife from a round-profile vacuum cleaner drive belt. If you can find some neoprene, that might work as well.

I got this advice from a *well known repair guy* who would know, and it did help. It didn't solve the problem entirely, though. When I was teaching and playing 3+ hours a day, it wasn't nearly as much of a problem as when I had to get a job with bennies and couldn't practice as much. Also, I was using a soup-can of a Doug Elliot mpc. When I moved to a smaller mpc it was like stuffing cotton balls into the 5th valve tubing. The low register on a 5x-J is definitely something you have to work on consistently (daily) to keep it working, because it isn't like any other horn I've ever played. In the end, bloke is right: the small bore has an effect that can't be solved easily or cheaply.

[jeopardymaster]

In the end, bloke is right: the small bore has an effect that can't be solved easily or cheaply.

I can't disagree because I've never played a 5xJ horn. But they look an awful lot like Sam Gnagey's creations, so I have to ask -- then how come Sam's horns speak so well in the low register? (At least mine does, like gangbusters.) The piston valve section is like .687, right?

[Alex C]

But they look an awful lot like Sam Gnagey's creations, so I have to ask -- then how come Sam's horns speak so well in the low register?

Bingo! Sam knows stuff the rest of us don't.

[Bill Troiano]

I believe the 5th valve rotors are the same size on the 5XJ and Sam's tubas. And, Sam's definitely does speak better in the low register. It could be that the 5th valve on the 5XJ tubas was more of an afterthought. They are really 4 valve tubas. The 5th valve tubing takes 2 very sharp turns and the whole assembly is removable. It plays better overall as a 4 valve tuba.

[danzfat]

Yank it out you can buy a straight piece where the rotor belonged i owned a 56j for three years never regretted once not having 5th valve. The gentle man i bought it from ended up buying a another 52j and taking the valve out then buying another 56j putting a meinl weston .820 valve in only to take it back out. Matt Walters prototype for this horn was only 4 valves i think i he was in to something. I could be completely wrong though its a preference thing.

[Bob Kolada]

Wade, how about a -dependent- 5th valve?

[Wyvern]

So this horn will be a 4 banger for some time

Wade, So how will you play low Db/C# and D on your Holton?

On some instrument not wanting to have 5 valves. I hear MW had trouble with the rotary Fafner finding a place to put a 5th valve without adversely affecting its playing - and in the end put in the 4th valve slide as a dependant valve (available to special order) to minimize its effect.

[Wyvern]

Wade, Thanks for the description of the use of the 1st slide playing a 4-valver - I have never understood that before

Also interesting your observations on the 2165 and York copies which make me even more pleased I play a Neptune! There is a tuba which was obviously designed as a 5-valve CC (no later added valve, or cut down version of BBb), the two leadpipes provide alternative back-pressures to suit the player, while the rotary valves mean no constriction from knuckles and provide short action

[Wyvern]

older rotary ones are hard to find out this way

Wade, Why are you particularly interested in an older Neptune? I have played ones of various ages and have not found a huge difference. Although individual examples vary in details and how well they play, unlike the 2165, I do not see the Neptune has changing much over the years.

Mel Culbertson and B&S/VMI did a first rate job in its initial design!

[bort]

I've also heard stories about the Miraphone 1291 rotor placement. I wouldn't call them negative effects, but perhaps that the tuba could be further improved by a different placement. I think the 1293 has the rotor in the same place, just a different, larger size.

Also, people seem to think that the 1291 BBb plays better than the 1291 CC. Perhaps a 4-valve vs. 5-valve issue?

[J.c. Sherman]

I'll defend the little Conns...

First, I will always miss mine, and until I'm wealthy enough to own 6 different 4/4 CC tubas, I always will. I also converted a York body to accept the 52J valve section, and it was a nice - if less in-tune - option. I ultimately went back to the Conn with the smaller bell as a better match.

Why do Mr. Gnagey's tubas play so well? I have a theory - he doesn't try to graft .720 tubing onto a .689 valve port like the Conns do; Conn uses the King valve set and simply solders on bigger tubing for the 4th valve. Dumb, IMHO.

Then, Conn/Selmer repeats the error on the 5th valve; a valve built for .720 tubing with .750 plumbing coming off of it. If you have one, as someone mentioned earlier, get it re-ported - I can assure you that unless you have my old one, it'll need it! Lap the other 4, make sure they're ported properly, and you'll have an extremely versatile tuba. The best part of them is the short 1st slide on this - push it in and 124 low F will split wood with perfect pitch. Then tune your 5th for a good 235 Db/C# and you'll barely have to do anything throughout the range.

I tried the horn without the 5th (I have my ways) and it was stellar. Magnificent, but not so much that I wanted to lose my balls-on Db. But fixing the porting made the low end great, IF you remember the mantra of "Low & Slow" for air. You can blow a pedal G with a drinking straw if you don't blow hard. The 52J will fight back if you blow hard.

I have a 4v Miraphone 184 - GREAT tuba where I do miss a 5th valve for Db, but otherwise I know it's better than my 5-valver was. But I've also played a 184 BBb that kicked my little CC's butt!

Besides a very, very, VERY few instruments, almost all CC tubas started their creation/creative inspiration from a BBb. The 52/54/56J tubas are obvious shop chops; my 164 Alex CC was an obvious shop chop. Even the CSO Yorks are inspired by the 6/4 BBbs of the period. I'm actually - right now - having a great deal of difficulty thinking of a tuba conceived as a CC first... maybe the 188 Miraphone (which is by-god fantastic) or maybe my Kalison DS... don't know. Late Besson/Nirschel CC?

Anyone?

Elephant's right - no Contra NEEDS a 5th valve... but I sure do miss my Dbs when I don't have it. Can I play 'em? Of course. But I like the option.

Replacing the rotor to the Conn 52J is an expensive idea... which won't net a compensatory benefit, I don't think. If it does, send me the Conn valve

As for a dependant setup, like the Yamaha 381 Ebs, unless it's tuned to a flat 1/2 step, you still don't have a cake-walk 1/2 step above the 1st harmonic, and it means pushing down the fourth valve also slams extra resistance into the way all at once. I'd avoid it. You want to really help your Conn? I'd recommend tearing off the 4th valve plumbing and putting on .689 tubing. Maybe have the next two bows re-fabricated.

Then you'll have something else

J.c.S. (who notes his Kalison does NOT have a graduated bore and likes it that way!).