Bug in the ear of the Chinese cloners...

[toobagrowl]

Great.

I only hope that common sense prevails if/when BATs become affordable. Most people do not need (and probably can't physically or musically handle) a BAT. Of course, I know that some people can, and there are certainly worthy players who would welcome a less-expensive option.

Although I grumble about cloned tubas in general, I can at least respect that up until this point they've been producing appropriately sized tubas. I just have this nightmare of too many players buying BATs because they look cool, and then ending up totally overwhelmed by them. I kind of like that price is a deterrent (or at least a checkpoint) for those serious enough to need a BAT.

+1 Ditto. Couldn't have said it better. 6/4 BATs = The "SUVs" of tubas. Few tuba players actually really need them. Kinda unsettling that so many tuba players are buying these cheap Chinese horns too. It is much better, imo, to buy an old used quality American or European horn - for roughly the same price (sometimes even cheaper) as the new Chinese horns - and fix it up/have custom work done on it for just a little more $$.

[TUBAD83]

Great.

I only hope that common sense prevails if/when BATs become affordable. Most people do not need (and probably can't physically or musically handle) a BAT. Of course, I know that some people can, and there are certainly worthy players who would welcome a less-expensive option.

Although I grumble about cloned tubas in general, I can at least respect that up until this point they've been producing appropriately sized tubas. I just have this nightmare of too many players buying BATs because they look cool, and then ending up totally overwhelmed by them. I kind of like that price is a deterrent (or at least a checkpoint) for those serious enough to need a BAT.

+1 Ditto. Couldn't have said it better. 6/4 BATs = The "SUVs" of tubas. Few tuba players actually really need them. Kinda unsettling that so many tuba players are buying these cheap Chinese horns too. It is much better, imo, to buy an old used quality American or European horn - for roughly the same price (sometimes even cheaper) as the new Chinese horns - and fix it up/have custom work done on it for just a little more $$.

If someone wants to buy one of these beasts, haul it around all time, risk getting "the hand" all the time in rehearsal AND performance because he can't control the horn properly and risk being frustrated all time because he bought more horn than he could handle--I say GOOD. When he has had enough, he will put it up for sale and someone who CAN handle it will grab it.

As for "the cheap Chinese horns"--as an owner of a Chinese horn, I assure you that the only thing cheap about it is the price. What's wrong with having Chinese horns in the market place and letting the consumer decide? Noone, imo, can honestly argue against giving those, who are a very limited budget or simply can not justify spending several thousand dollars for an avocation, as many choices as possible to get a good quality tuba.

JJ

[bort]

As for "the cheap Chinese horns"--as an owner of a Chinese horn, I assure you that the only thing cheap about it is the price. What's wrong with having Chinese horns in the market place and letting the consumer decide? Noone, imo, can honestly argue against giving those, who are a very limited budget or simply can not justify spending several thousand dollars for an avocation, as many choices as possible to get a good quality tuba.

JJ

Not to get into it too much here, but my big problem is with the companies who do the cloning and their lack of originality/design. "Anything you can do, I can do cheaper." Though I wish they didn't really exist, I know I can't blame people for taking advantage of cloned tubas -- we are capitalists after all. But personally, I'm the type that values tradition, and I would rather hold and save to get the "real thing." But, maybe that's just my German heritage coming through.

Oh well... I realize I'm in the minority, and I accept that. If the world ends up with more tuba players, I guess I can't complain about that.

[cjk]

Not to get into it too much here, but my big problem is with the companies who do the cloning and their lack of originality/design. "Anything you can do, I can do cheaper." Though I wish they didn't really exist, I know I can't blame people for taking advantage of cloned tubas -- we are capitalists after all. But personally, I'm the type that values tradition, and I would rather hold and save to get the "real thing." But, maybe that's just my German heritage coming through.

Oh well... I realize I'm in the minority, and I accept that. If the world ends up with more tuba players, I guess I can't complain about that.

I see a lot of what you call "clones" as copies with slight modifications. Some of the instruments appear to be copies + substantial modifications. I don't see that as being much different than other companies have done. For example,

* Hirsbrunner, Yamaha, and Nirschl all copied one or the other of the Chicago Symphony's York CC tubas.
* The MW 2165 started out as a copy of a Holton 345 CC.
* B&S copied a 4/4 York CC for the PT-606p.
* Meinl-Weston copied a large B & F tuba for the MW 197.
* The original Mirafone 181 tubas from 20+ years ago were B&S F tuba copies.
* The Yamaha 321 Eb is a body copy of a Besson Imperial Eb with a non-compensating valve section.
* The Yamaha 321 Bb is obviously based on a Besson design as well.
* The Getzen G50 was a copy of an instrument built by Bob Rusk.
* Kanstul is making improved copies of York monster Eb tubas.

How is any of this really different other than where the copies are being made?

[TexTuba]

I see a lot of what you call "clones" as copies with slight modifications. Some of the instruments appear to be copies + substantial modifications. I don't see that as being much different than other companies have done. For example,

* Hirsbrunner, Yamaha, and Nirschl all copied one or the other of the Chicago Symphony's York CC tubas.
* The MW 2165 started out as a copy of a Holton 345 CC.
* B&S copied a 4/4 York CC for the PT-606p.
* Meinl-Weston copied a large B & F tuba for the MW 197.
* The original Mirafone 181 tubas from 20+ years ago were B&S F tuba copies.
* The Yamaha 321 Eb is a body copy of a Besson Imperial Eb with a non-compensating valve section.
* The Yamaha 321 Bb is obviously based on a Besson design as well.
* The Getzen G50 was a copy of an instrument built by Bob Rusk.
* Kanstul is making improved copies of York monster Eb tubas.

How is any of this really different other than where the copies are being made?

Well when you put it like THAT...

[ckalaher1]

Couldn't agree more. There's a big difference between the above situations and the clones from the Far East. Taking another company's intellectual property, copying it without refinement, undercutting the original manufacturer's price, while the original company still produces the product in question, is for lack of a better term, wrong. Sorry for the run on sentence.

[UDELBR]

"Anything you can do, I can do cheaper."

How's this anything but the American entrepreneurial spirit, taken to the Nth degree? Hard to blame 'em for out-Americaning us...

[ginnboonmiller]

intent of ... confusing the entry level consumer

Hm. Maybe if they were marketed as "Miraphonic" or "Beston" or something, but I don't really see how that applies.

This stuff might be morally questionable to some, but it's hardly unique. And the whole phenomenon has its advantages for the consumer, too.

You don't even have to look outside of musical instrument manufacture for an example. In the 1970s, a couple factories in Japan were building essentially unchanged and unimproved copies of Fender and Gibson guitars. By the end of that decade, most of the Japanese copies were better instruments than what was coming out of the American factories at the time. Gibson successfully used the courts to protect their designs, and Fender, who had not ever really protected themselves, went ahead and started the Squier division and marketed the Japanese built copies themselves. I'd MUCH rather have a 1981 Japanese Squier stratocaster than an American built Fender strat from the same year. No contest. These days, some of the best Fender guitars still come out of Japan, and if you want a new Les Paul... well, you don't really, but the best route is to get an Edwards copy greymarketed in from Japan.

Fender learned from the 1970s, and they now have factories in Japan, Korea, China, Indonesia and India. In the past year or so, the Chinese Squiers labeled as "Classic Vibe" instruments are really terrific guitars that sell for 10% or less of what the American models they're designed after go for. And as the factories get better under Fender's supervision, they have been putting out new and cool guitars that aren't copies of anything. I'm hoping to get my hands on a Chinese Squier Jaguar bass soon, which has no historical precedent, except maybe the Japanese designed Fender Jaguar from about 5 years ago.

This is happening in the tuba world now. Not a big deal except to tuba players, frankly. Walter Nirschl is taking the Fender route with the Brazilian production line of tubas, which might work well, and in the meantime this is either a brief "golden age" of inexpensive, bang-for-the-buck tubas (and maybe better than that, even. I liked the Dillon 186 copy quite a bit, full stop. It's price just adds to the appeal) before Jin Bao gets smacked with lawsuits, or it's the beginning of a new, creative future for tuba manufacture. Time will tell. I still play my B&S every day.

[cjk]

Not a strict copy with intent of economic undercutting the original producer and confusing the entry level consumer.

I'm perfectly OK with the "intent of economic undercutting". Not much different than buying "store brand" green beans, toilet paper, or a Kia automobile.

Can you elaborate on the part where you say "intent of ... confusing the entry level consumer"? Perhaps you can provide an example of what you mean? EDIT (looks like you did)

[cjk]

They are marketed by their most vocal sellers in a way to confuse the entry level buyer.

Can't even count the number of times I've had to explain that the Allora/MM/Schiller* etc is not a Miraphone 186...

Stamping "German Engineering" on the bell helps a lot, too...

Their most vocal sellers are placing orders and specifying what they want engraved on the bell. The sellers aren't making the instruments. Seems to me that the "intent to confuse the entry level buyer" is homegrown in the good ole USA.

[bort]

LJV and ckalaher 1 are both spot on. Exactly what I was going to say.

And maybe it's because I work in publishing -- it seems like straight plagiarism. And in the publishing world, plagiarism is a career-ender.

[cjk]

Did people moan like this about the Weril Yamacopies? Just wondering.

[Michael Bush]

They are marketed by their most vocal sellers in a way to confuse the entry level buyer.

Can't even count the number of times I've had to explain that the Allora/MM/Schiller* etc is not a Miraphone 186...

I've written at length on here about the effort Jim Laabs Music puts into deceiving people with the "Schiller" brand, and I won't repeat all that. It is a truly astonishing pile that they're trying to get you to accept.

But it is worth pointing out that Laabs is an American company. Jinbao isn't holding a gun to their head. Nor does Jinbao make any intentionally deceptive claims that I've ever seen. Unlike some Chinese manufacturers of musical instruments, they don't put Western brand names on the instruments. They are what they are. It's Americans who pitch them as having some kind of association with western brands.

[cjk]

Did people moan like this about the Weril Yamacopies? Just wondering.

Yada. Weril didn't market themselves as "Yamaha."

I'm not seeing Jin Bao market themselves as "Miraphone" either.

There are "Timex" customers and there are "Rolex" customers in every situation. Despite what they say out loud, people don't want to be pegged as "Timex."
....
Too blunt for Tubenet, as usual...

I'm not really seeing what's so blunt or particularly earth shattering about that.

[bort]

Did people moan like this about the Weril Yamacopies? Just wondering.

Yada. Weril didn't market themselves as "Yamaha."

I'm not seeing Jin Bao market themselves as "Miraphone" either.

Oh come on, it's no real secret either. You think they're not benefitting by the "look"...(looks like a duck, quacks like 85% of a duck...)

Anyway, enough from me on this. I've said my bit and I guess yall know where I stand now.

[tubaforce]

Bloke has it right! Honesty is the best policy! JinBao is the new Jupiter, maybe even the new Yamaha, if they pay attention to what their customers are saying! I'm unsure just how much MLB of MM is involved in R&D at JinBao, but there are many of us who owe him a nod for pushing them(JinBao) to the front of the Chinese instrument maker's line! As to the sellers of stencilled axes, shame on you, for your dishonesty and especially your GREED! I am especially refering to the good folks at Conn-Selmer, who are selling student Flutes, Clarinets, Trumpets, as American or European made horns, when, in fact they are coming straight from China, or are assembled using Chinese made parts! As to our Tuba and Euphonium needs, I applaud the affordability and playability of quite a few of the Asian horns! I wish every one could afford an American or European axe, but at least we can now afford to own our instruments, and maybe some day trade in our Chevys for Caddilacs, or Beamers! At least we're no longer offered Yugo's and Kia's as our only options!

Have a GREAT day!
Al

[TUBAD83]

They are marketed by their most vocal sellers in a way to confuse the entry level buyer.

Can't even count the number of times I've had to explain that the Allora/MM/Schiller* etc is not a Miraphone 186...

I've written at length on here about the effort Jim Laabs Music puts into deceiving people with the "Schiller" brand, and I won't repeat all that. It is a truly astonishing pile that they're trying to get you to accept.

But it is worth pointing out that Laabs is an American company. Jinbao isn't holding a gun to their head. Nor does Jinbao make any intentionally deceptive claims that I've ever seen. Unlike some Chinese manufacturers of musical instruments, they don't put Western brand names on the instruments. They are what they are. It's Americans who pitch them as having some kind of association with western brands.

I concur---I wish sellers would not do this kind marketing---these horns deserve better and consumers deserve to know upfront where these tubas come from. It would be a "harder sell" but it would be more honest.

There are "Timex" customers and there are "Rolex" customers in every situation. Despite what they say out loud, people don't want to be pegged as "Timex."

There's nothing wrong with being a "Timex" customer. As a matter of fact, people really run into trouble when they make poor choices and live beyond their means. "Rolex" isn't for everyone.

The newer Chinese tubas are great for the "Timex" crowd. That includes young students and the casual player. Some of the Chinese tubas can now almost keep up with really good, traditional instruments in the right hands. BUT, their cover is blown for the most part and that's forcing them to improve... and get more expensive. How long the Chinese will want to spend resources on improvement? Buy it now if you like it.

Too blunt for Tubenet, as usual...

Wow, has class warfare been declared on here now??? There's blunt and then there's condescending and just plain rude.

J "40 year Timex wearer and DAMN PROUD OF IT" J

[Wyvern]

***

[prototypedenNIS]

Or maybe if you can't afford a $20k horn you should get a King 1140 and make do.

[peter birch]

After hearing such great things about the Besson 3 top 1 side compensating EEb clone-- I think there are several of us in the US who just don't work and play well with that 3 + 1 valve layout, but love the EEb sound. How about a 4 front action EEb (or top action for that matter... just relocate the 4th valve on the Besson clone)? Just something to think about...

Oh and since I'm dreaming of good cheap horns... how about a 6/4 CC?

I am asking this as a serious question, but why is that? Cultural differences and personal preferences aside, is there a reason for this?