Bells and design

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k001k47
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Re: Bells and design

Post by k001k47 »

KiltieTuba wrote:A couple of random questions:

Is it possible to bend an upright bell? I am wondering if a standard upright bell can be converted into a recording bell.

Anyone have some pictures of double belled tubas? Or perhaps - how could a baritone/euphonium bell be added to a standard tuba, while maintaining the open tuba length and a conical tube?
Found on Jim Self's website Image
a

I dont think converting a bell would work out too well... :?:
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Re: Bells and design

Post by SousaSaver »

Bending a bell CAN be done, but it would have to be a major undertaking.

I imagine you would have to find or make some kind of apparatus to fill it and bend it.

I know you have seen the old photos of the Conn factory where they are using pulleys over the rafters in the ceiling to bend Tuba and Sousa branches, so imagine the kind of gear you would need to bend a bell.

Bending a Tuba bell can be done, but I don't think it would be very practical to try. I think you should pursue a big baritone bell that is already bent. That might suit your needs.
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k001k47
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Re: Bells and design

Post by k001k47 »

KiltieTuba wrote:
k001k47 wrote:Found on Jim Self's website IMAGE

I dont think converting a bell would work out too well... :?:
Yes, I've seen this angle, as well as the picture of Tommy Johnson playing a Miraphone 6v CC with two bells - single angle, and the one small picture of the Bellophone - Bill Bell's King DB tuba. I was hoping someone had some pictures stashed away somewhere...

The link in Klaus' sig leads to a HUGE pic database, as I think you know.
You could probably find a few pics of double belled tubas if the site had some sort of search function. :|
maybe "double belled tuba:site(web address)" on google would work
edit: link isn't there anymore
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Re: Bells and design

Post by pigman »

Can you bend a n upright bell , Yes it "can" be done .
the answer is NO

Recording bells are made differently attempting to bend a n existing upright is a waste of time and money and will result in a pile of scrap
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imperialbari
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Re: Bells and design

Post by imperialbari »

KiltieTuba wrote:A couple of random questions:

Is it possible to bend an upright bell? I am wondering if a standard upright bell can be converted into a recording bell.
bloke has told of one US maker using the same bell taper for their BBb tubas and for their sousaphones. He better tells the story himself, but the main point was that the same basic funnel was found as the large back bow on their sousaphones and as stack and bottom bow on their tubas.

There is some simple geometric principles behind bending tubing, but the specific formulas aren’t necessarily simple.

A Danish repairman trained in building brass instruments from scratch in the old German masters’ system told that bending relatively small bore tubing like trumpet and horn bells creates wrinkles on the inner perimeter, where material is compressed. These wrinkles were scraped off in the old German school.

On the outer perimeter the material is stretched, which means the wall of the tubing becomes thinner. If the bend is too radical there may occur cracks. Due to the thinned material we see bow guards and caps on the outer perimeter. They obviously shall enforce the tubing in areas where thinness and an exposed placement easily lead to dents.

I however think these guards and caps may have a function much more important than preventing dents: they dampen the oscillation of the tubing when the instrument in question is played. While waiting for my Besson 981 to be made for me, I loaned a sample of the non-compensating equivalent from the 700 series. Especially the top bow lacked guard material. The result was about some notes responding way too loudly from normal even playing. Especially the Ab on top of the staff went off like a rocket with almost no ignition.

This article tells about material thinning by different ways of making bells:

http://www.osmun.com/prod/Schmid/Schmidbell.htm

However tuba and euphonium bells often are made by insetting triangular gussets to avoid too much thinning of the material. On some lacquered bell one may see these inserts.

Hypothetical sample: If you had the right mandrel for bending an existing straight bell, you should ideally cut a slit on what would become the outside of the bent bell. You then should insert a gusset of a shape likely to be somewhere between a rhomb and an ellipse.

The handmade bottom bows of high end tubas are made from two pieces of sheet brass hammered around a mandrel (or inside female half mandrels) and then joined by seams along the inner and outer perimeters.

If you look down the body knee of an old Conn sousaphone you will see silver soldered seams telling that this knee was made of at least two pieces of brass before getting its final shape in the hydraulic press.

With silver or gold plated instruments it is not possible to see, whether the bell knee on Conn sousaphones are made the same way, but my guess would be that they are. And the bell flare obviously was made separately and only was joined after the knee had achieved its shape.

So bending an existing bell is not likely to happen, and the old guys, who made non-detachable recording bells, certainly knew how to subdivide their task when building them from scratch.

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Re: Bells and design

Post by pigman »

FRont facing bells are formed that way from the start The power needed to bend a filled tube 7 or 8 inches in dia., is unbelivable. It would have to be bent in stages .. forget it.. Many European and early American makers folded the bell from one sheet of brass. That nessitated the inseartion of the triangle. Very few makers continue this process, I have seen many Mirafone and Alexanders built this way.

I have an ophiclide whos bow is made of 4 pieces. Its a case of what ever works


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Daniel C. Oberloh
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Re: Bells and design

Post by Daniel C. Oberloh »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3IznMWn ... re=related

See 2:55 and you will get an idea of how its done.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank
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imperialbari
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Re: Bells and design

Post by imperialbari »

Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3IznMWn ... re=related

See 2:55 and you will get an idea of how its done.
Thanks for the link!

Sadly the shaping of the sousaphone bell knee is presented with very little context. Is it so that the knee has been pre-shaped to an almost right bore, and that it then is pressure fitted into the bell flare, which has been spun in a separate procedure?

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Re: Bells and design

Post by Daniel C. Oberloh »

imperialbari wrote:
Daniel C. Oberloh wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3IznMWn ... re=related

See 2:55 and you will get an idea of how its done.
Thanks for the link!

Sadly the shaping of the sousaphone bell knee is presented with very little context. Is it so that the knee has been pre-shaped to an almost right bore, and that it then is pressure fitted into the bell flare, which has been spun in a separate procedure?

Klaus

The video shows an extrusion method; a hallow tapered plug made of lead that has a cable connected to it, is pulled down through a partially formed euphonium recording bell that is inside an external die/form.

The bow bend sub-assembly in question starts with a pattern of sheet brass that is stamped or rough formed prior to assembly and brazing. It is roughly shaped by hand and then put in the die and drawn to the predetermined shape.

The die is fixed to a draw-bench that also provides the pulling force to the cable. This fabrication method can also be applied to recording tuba and sousa bells. After it is extruded, the bell is mounted to the proper chuck on a spinning lathe and the bell shape is then finished. I suppose hydaforming (sp) might be another way of doing it but this production method is relatively simple and has worked well for a very long time.


Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
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